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Axiom or Ascend to replace JBL?

4586 Views 73 Replies 24 Participants Last post by Schadenfreude, Jan 29, 2006

Maolq

Discussion Starter · Dec 21, 2005

I am considering upgrading the sound system which I use for HT and music (pretty even balance) in my family room and am looking for a little advice. The room is fairly small (12 x 10) but open across the back into the eating area and kitchen. Also, because of a fireplace, lots of windows, a bathroom and a closet, placement options are a little limited. My current setup is as follows:

JBL N28 L/R (old studio series bookshelves) w/ 24' stands

JBL EC25 Center

JBL E150p Sub

Yamaha RX-V1400 Receiver

I am also currently in trhe process of purchasing a Panasonic TH-42PHD8UK Plasma TV.

The JBL stuff sounds ok to me but I recognize that it is fairly low end stuff and believe that an upgrade might make a big difference. I plan on starting with the front three. I have read a lot of good stuff about both Axiom and Ascend here on this forum in terms of both performance and price and am considering auditioning some of their stuff. I would like to know given my room constraints (including the fact that the speakers will be pretty close to the walls), what anyone thinks about the following setups. How big would the difference be over the JBL stuff I have now?

Setup #1:

Ascend CMT-340m L/R

Ascend CMT-340C Center (would this be ok in a cabinet ... rear port issues?)

Setup #2

Ascend CBM-170 L/R

Ascend HTM-200 Center (on its side)

Setup #3

Axiom M22ti L/R

Axiom VP100 Center

At some point I would like to put in In walls / In Ceilings for surrounds but this will probably be later (unless I decide that I'm going to keep the JBL stuff in which case I will probably put in JBL HTI surrounds).

Any opinions would be appreciated. Thanks.

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1 - 20 of 74 Posts

astrallite

· #2 · Dec 21, 2005

If its in a cabinet a sealed speaker might do better for a center channel.

As for the difference, who knows? How much you perceive, we can't tell. It might be more apparent in music than HT.

Axioms are a bit brighter than the Ascends, it all comes down to your tastes.

gohd

· #3 · Dec 22, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maolq
Ascend CMT-340C Center (would this be ok in a cabinet ... rear port issues?)

I tried a 340c in a partially enclosed console (in middle section of console with back removed) and it sounded hollow to me (not terrible though). I removed it and placed it on top of the console and thought it sounded better.

mboy

· #4 · Dec 22, 2005

Set up #1 is what I went with when I upgraded from my od JBL E80's/EC35.

Couldn't be happier (well, maybe a little until I get my Projector set up next week

.

F107plus5

· #5 · Dec 22, 2005

I understand that lots of folks think; or have heard, that Axioms are "bright"

There are, of course, that "other" group of Axioms that most people don't think about too much here lately. And those are the slightly(very slightly)more laid-back duo of M3(bookshelf)and M50(floorstander) These are a very neutral middle-of -the-road speaker pair that are neither bright nor dull.

They give up a little accuracy compared to the M22s, but they counter by being more polite when presented with less-than-ideally recorded material.

I've had M3s for about four years now, and have yet to hear an offensive sound from them!

In a smaller room, a full set of five M3s would(and did, I have M50s for mains, now,)make a fine perfectly matched home theater system; utilizing a vertical and inverted M3 as center above the screen. The VP100 is a sealed, and much loved, center within the Axiom set, but the M3 as center produces closer to a full-range output that many folks appreciate, and which matches the other M3s and M50s perfectly. Unfortunately it is ported....in back, which could be a problem in a cabinet with an enclosed back.

Axiom also produces an on/in wall version of the M3s which could be used in front or out back.

They make good stuff that's well worth looking into!

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Sirquack

· #6 · Dec 22, 2005

I agree with you F107, It bugs me when people refer to Axiom's as Bright, that is not my experience. I have found that most people that make these claims have never auditioned Axiom's. One thing astrallite said that is true, is that it comes down to taste. A demo is all it took for me to select Axiom over B&W and NHT.

Alimentall

· #7 · Dec 22, 2005

Just so we're fair, a demo is all it took for three people to trade in their Axioms for NHT. So, it does come down to personal preference. I think it would certainly be fair to say that Axiom is "brighter" than many speakers including NHT, Ascend - more similar in tonal balance to JMLabs, Thiels, etc.

jakeman

· #8 · Dec 22, 2005

John. I understand your opinion on how you hear the Axioms as "brighter" but most knowledgeable listeners including myself hear them as transparent and neutral. The flat frequency response of the Axioms are brutally revealing of the source recording.

In this regard, I read an article last month in Home Entertainment magazine about PSB-- Paul Barton's-- latest testing at the NRC anechoic chamber. He was commenting that several listeners reported how speakers with a flat response above 5000hz sounded "bright" whereas those with less linear response above 5000hz sounded "warmer".

Its a question of deciding whether one wants accurate reproduction vs. coloured sound really. If the accurate reproduction comes across as "bright" then isn't it better to have the flexilility of colouring the sound yourself with the treble equalizer or tone control rather than having someone colour the speakers sound before it reaches your listening room.

Alimentall

· #9 · Dec 22, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakeman
John. I understand your opinion on how you hear the Axioms as "brighter" but most knowledgeable listeners including myself hear them as transparent and neutral. The flat frequency response of the Axioms are brutally revealing of the source recording.

"Brutally revealing" is a euphemism for "harsh". Aka cone resonances. Metal cone resonances. You're right. I was going to change my post to say "they're not bright, they're harsh" as that is more honest. How long have you been a knowledgeable listener?

Bikedorian

· #10 · Dec 22, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maolq
Setup #1:

Ascend CMT-340m L/R

Ascend CMT-340C Center (would this be ok in a cabinet ... rear port issues?)

Setup #2

Ascend CBM-170 L/R

Ascend HTM-200 Center (on its side)

Any opinions would be appreciated. Thanks.

I haven't heard the Axiom's so I can't comment on them. I own both the 340's and 200's. They are both very good at what they're intended for but there is a sizeable difference in center channel reproduction. My 340C resides on top of our entertainment center so I can't comment on the port issues. The 200 has the advantage of being a sealed speaker so porting won't be an issue.

I'd encourage you to audition all of the speakers you've mentioned. Return shipping is a reasonable price to pay for a month's rental of very good speakers. Normally, I'd suggest just the L/R but in your case the center is a must. If you do audition the whole enchilada, give us a detailed report. The issues you have with the center speaker are not uncommon and someone else might benefit from your experience.

David

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jakeman

· #11 · Dec 22, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alimentall
"Brutally revealing" is a euphemism for "harsh". Aka cone resonances. Metal cone resonances. You're right. I was going to change my post to say "they're not bright, they're harsh" as that is more honest. How long have you been a knowledgeable listener?

Harsh to your tintinitis ears, perhaps. The Axioms are neutral and transparent. You don't distribute them so why not preface your comments. I have heard the entire Axiom lineup and they are excellent speakers at their price points. Having said that I own much more expensive Totems in a 7.2 system with one Axiom EP600 sub in the mix. Knowledgeable is relative but I bought my first mid-fi audio gear in 1970 a Sherwood receiver and my first real speakers Dynaco A-10s shortly .

Alimentall

· #12 · Dec 22, 2005

I do not distribute Axiom. They are harsher than they are bright because of the metal cone resonance in their questionable application of crossover/drivers. This is why you should *never* buy a speaker based purely on a FR graph and cheerleader owners. FR graphs don't tell you about distortion, spectral decay, dispersion and other important parts of sound.

One man's "neutral and transparent" is another man's "harsh and bright". You have your opinion, I have mine. I don't want to go into the same tired old arguments again. If you want to express your love for Axioms, fine, but don't attack me because I have a different opinion.

BTW, the Axiom M3s are getting dropped off today by my customer so I'll get a chance to listen to those as well. His wife stole his NHTs and demoted him to the Axioms, so he's getting another set of the newer NHTs. FWIW. Two sides to every coin. Yes, I am shameless.

Rijax

· #13 · Dec 22, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alimentall
Just so we're fair, a demo is all it took for three people to trade in their Axioms for NHT. So, it does come down to personal preference. I think it would certainly be fair to say that Axiom is "brighter" than many speakers including NHT, Ascend - more similar in tonal balance to JMLabs, Thiels, etc.

And just so we're REALLY fair, if you'll come over to the Axiom forum I'll introduce you to some people who auditioned that brand you sell, didn't like them, and bought Axioms (OOPS! You've already met one

). John, 3, or 5, or 105 people preferring your brand to Axioms does NOT prove your brand is superior any more than those who prefer Axiom proves them "superior" to any other speaker.

You may not like the way Axioms sound. Others don't as well. But, the fact is, whether you like it or not, MANY people DO like the way Axiom's sound, and are very happy with their purchase. You gotta try to get a life and get off this anti-Axiom crusade. Every time they're mentioned, there's ol' John bashing away. Sheesh!

Nah, John you're not "shameless," you're shameful.

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oachalon

· #14 · Dec 22, 2005

He sells NHT hes trying to promote his product which a businessman is suppose to do but he does go overboard. John everyone has different ears, minds, environments, tastes, etc. People like different stuff. If you dont like something thats fine. The way you say it is what pisses people off. You say axioms are harsh speakers period. What you should say is my opinion is that axioms are harsh speakers. Thats your opinion. Doesnt mean someone elses opinion will be the same. If you add in a keyword everybody will be happy.

F107plus5

· #15 · Dec 22, 2005

I certainly agree wholeheartedly on one major point......one should NOT purchase speakers on cheerleader owners statements or FR graphs.

Couldn't agree more!!

A 30 day free home trial should be accomplished first, if available.

That's why when it was time to graduate up to floorstanders from bookshelves due to a larger listening room, it was easy to buy a pair of Axiom M50s.

.......they sound almost exactly like the Axiom M3s that I'd owned(at that time)for a wonderful three years. And incidentally, the M3s are now gracing my center and surround positions, where they really shine..........but not too "brightly"!!

Easy choice!!

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BodegaBay

· #16 · Dec 22, 2005

I don't think John's posts in this thread are heavy handed nor anti anything. In fact, his arguments are much more articulate than most.

I've demoed some NHTs, some are bright for my tastes while one was exceptionally neutral smooth (Xd). I've also demoed Axioms and for my ears they are brighter -- indeed they remind me of Monitor Audio or Thiels, albeit not as refined. But my preference has never been metal tweeters so those types of speakers have to be implemented perfectly to sound good for me.

I like soft domes so speakers like Dali, Vienna, Sonus, Ascend, etc. are suited for me. I could care less if another person thinks a speaker is flat, accurate, or neutral as heck, if it doesn't sound ideal to MY EARS (colored or otherwise), then it's not for me. Like the man said, it comes down to personal preference. The trick is finding that personal preference. If you haven't listened to a number of speakers to compare, then you really don't know what that personal preference is. It's not something gained overnight or even over months -- certainly not over one forum post. That said, I highly encourage the first poster to listen to a variety of speakers before choosing a sonic signature he/she likes. Take your time and take advantage of those in house demos -- they are priceless!

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Maolq

Discussion Starter · #17 · Dec 22, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by F107plus5
In a smaller room, a full set of five M3s would(and did, I have M50s for mains, now,)make a fine perfectly matched home theater system; utilizing a vertical and inverted M3 as center above the screen. The VP100 is a sealed, and much loved, center within the Axiom set, but the M3 as center produces closer to a full-range output that many folks appreciate, and which matches the other M3s and M50s perfectly. Unfortunately it is ported....in back, which could be a problem in a cabinet with an enclosed back.

F107 thanks for the response. If I really don't want to get a rear ported center, do you think the VP100 would still sound pretty good with a set of M3s?

Can anyone suggest other brands in the $500-$1000 range for the front three that might compare with Axiom or Acsend that I might think about auditioning? I like the idea of a speaker that is detailed but at the same time "polite when presented with less-than-ideally recorded material". Also, can anyone point me at Axiom or Ascend owners forums? Thanks.

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Alimentall

· #18 · Dec 22, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rijax
John, 3, or 5, or 105 people preferring your brand to Axioms does NOT prove your brand is superior any more than those who prefer Axiom proves them "superior" to any other speaker.

Exactly. Just as someone saying they chose Axiom over NHT or B&W does not make Axiom superior, just more to their taste. People get caught up in the idea of buying "the best speaker" rather than buying "the best speaker FOR ME". And they get caught up in the well-marketed idea that buying an ID product is automatically better than buying a brand from a store.
Quote:

You may not like the way Axioms sound. Others don't as well. But, the fact is, whether you like it or not, MANY people DO like the way Axiom's sound, and are very happy with their purchase. You gotta try to get a life and get off this anti-Axiom crusade. Every time they're mentioned, there's ol' John bashing away. Sheesh!

Saying that they are "brighter" is "bashing away"? How about just a bit if reality? I didn't say they sucked. I was trying to be polite.

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Alimentall

· #19 · Dec 22, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by oachalon
He sells NHT hes trying to promote his product which a businessman is suppose to do but he does go overboard. John everyone has different ears, minds, environments, tastes, etc. People like different stuff.

I'm only trying to promote diversity of thought rather than herd mentality, to be honest.
Quote:

If you dont like something thats fine. The way you say it is what pisses people off. You say axioms are harsh speakers period. What you should say is my opinion is that axioms are harsh speakers. Thats your opinion. Doesnt mean someone elses opinion will be the same. If you add in a keyword everybody will be happy.

Well, look, *everything* I say is my opinion. Who goes around putting "IMO" in front of every opinion? I thought that went without saying. I would find it *irresponsible* not to state my opinion in the absence of similar opinions.

jakeman

· #20 · Dec 22, 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alimentall
I do not distribute Axiom. They are harsher than they are bright because of the metal cone resonance in their questionable application of crossover/drivers. This is why you should *never* buy a speaker based purely on a FR graph and cheerleader owners. FR graphs don't tell you about distortion, spectral decay, dispersion and other important parts of sound.

One man's "neutral and transparent" is another man's "harsh and bright". You have your opinion, I have mine. I don't want to go into the same tired old arguments again. If you want to express your love for Axioms, fine, but don't attack me because I have a different opinion.

BTW, the Axiom M3s are getting dropped off today by my customer so I'll get a chance to listen to those as well. His wife stole his NHTs and demoted him to the Axioms, so he's getting another set of the newer NHTs. FWIW. Two sides to every coin. Yes, I am shameless.

It's not a question of John being inarticulate or heavy handed. While I disagree with his opinion I don't have a problem with it per se. It's the way John goes overboard with it without giving the readers a backgrounder on your peculiarities. The fact that John has a hearing problem and hears ringing is no laughing matter, but it does mean that his views on speakers must be taken with a big grain of salt.

If your left ear is susceptible to "ringing" within 5 minutes which makes you dizzy and uncomfortable shouldn't that disqualify you from offering an opinion on speaker sound. Yet despite this serious problem John continues to pound away at Axiom's aluminum drivers as the source of his discomfort. It's unusual that John persists in this manner when 99.9% of listeners don't have this problem nor do they report ringing. If I had a hearing problem I would refrain from offering any opinion so as to not mislead people.

So to those who have not heard these speakers I suggest you take advantage of the 30 day no question ask return policy and judge for yourself. I don't have ringing ears and they sound mighty fine to me.

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