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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I haven't been paying much attention lately. What's the hot setup for someone who has B&C DE250 & JBL 2226H 15" woofers?


What waveguide/horn & crossover combo + enclosure type would be a good way to go?


I know there is the 4 PI, but I've seen random Zilch & Brandonash & others posting about other combos. I'm gonna go 4 PI unless there is something else to try.
 

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since wayne sells his crossover a la carte, which is really cool of him, you can give it a try and see what you think. the eminence h290 horn may not be the best on the planet, but it seems to do what it needs to do. it's a bi-radial, not a cd, but note that jbl chose a bi-radial for the k2 and they have plenty of in-house horn experience. the nice thing about starting with good drivers (as you have) is that lots of problems are solved even before you start building. if you have the ability to put a little parametric eq on them *and* you want an 80hz cross to subs, you might even try building them sealed. arguments on both sides...reduced excursion vs. fewer resonances...pick your poison. whatever you choose, please report back. lots of folks considering similar builds around here.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Whoah, that Eminence h290 horn is about $70/pair more expensive than I expected. I assumed it would be similar in price to the JBL.

Well, if I build the 4 PI, I'll build it to spec. I'd prefer to make my own crossover though, if I could find a BOM for it.


For home theater, I would be crossing over at 80hz. But I rarely use a subwoofer when I'm listening to music. So I'll likely continue to tune my speakers low'ish.
 

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i think zilch and co. may have an econowave premium that could work for you. it uses the qsc horn and i think they just worked out a crossover for use with your cd. i may be mistaken though. shoot zilch a note and i'm sure he'll help you out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Yep, the econowave premium is based on a different woofer though.

I'll be building the econowave basics for my surround, since I already have the D220i & econowave crossover. Not sure what I'll tune those for yet. Maybe I'll go sealed, since they are surrounds and I'd want a smaller enclosure.


Anyone here have the Eminence H290 horns for sale?
 

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290's look like an econo- compared with the jbl 2352's that i've been eyeballing. $299 a pop and require 1.5" drivers (bms 4555, my choice of course), but something in my gut just tells me the big jbl horns (they are 22" wide) are the way to go over the 1.5" equivalent econowave horns. the smooth transition to the baffle is appealing. i can't say why, but my intuition is just screaming this is important. anyway...
 

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Unless you want to design a xover for a different flare, the the 4Π is probably the best bet.


If you have electronic EQ available, then a 70L ported box, tuned to 39Hz with a Q=2 HPF at that frequency will get you the curves below.


I'm doing something almost identical with my 2225's for the sides and rears, but they will be 3 way, I'm just vacillating on 2123 + CD/WG or large coax above them.



 

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where are you crossing your 2123's into your horns alpha niner and what horns are you using?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 /forum/post/18308220


290's look like an econo- compared with the jbl 2352's that i've been eyeballing. $299 a pop and require 1.5" drivers (bms 4555, my choice of course), but something in my gut just tells me the big jbl horns (they are 22" wide) are the way to go over the 1.5" equivalent econowave horns. the smooth transition to the baffle is appealing. i can't say why, but my intuition is just screaming this is important. anyway...

Ever considered the XT1464?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 /forum/post/18308310


where are you crossing your 2123's into your horns alpha niner and what horns are you using?

1k5 to 1k7 has been the best sounding so far in the quick tests I've done with the 90x40 Ewaves and B&C DE250. I also have the QSC122 and 18Sound XT1086 (still to receive these from a trade) and 18Sound ND1090 and Emilar EA175 CDs or the PAudio BM15CX38 and BM8CX. Too many choices.
 

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i really like the xt1464 horn. it seems to do a lot right. it's a little narrower though, i think it is a 50x60 degree horn. what i don't like is that it is a 1.4" throat. i was also thinking a 90 degree horn would be better for maintaining a more constant sound field at more locations around the room. i suppose one could go with a 1" exit cd and an adapter. the oddball behavior at the top end of the frequency response in the kit zilch posted seems to be crossover and cd related. the horn has good measurements with the more expensive driver otherwise.
 

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The bigger issue is shown in the polars.


You almost have to cross a horn having that great a depth actively using delay.


THEN, the center-to-center distance is going to get you smack in the vertical lobe when mated with a large woofer....
 

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"You almost have to cross a horn having that great a depth actively using delay."


good point. i guess this would be an issue to for the large format jbl horns too, such as the 2352. if you know, how does jbl deal with this issue on passive versions of the two-way theater products, such as the 4622? i planned active for flexibility and experimentation.


"THEN, the center-to-center distance is going to get you smack in the vertical lobe when mated with a large woofer...."


i don't follow z. i thought that with actively time aligned drivers with 14" center-to-center spacing, and a 1150hz crossover point, the nulls would occur at +/-25 degrees, which is just about perfect for a 50degree vertical horn. were you talking about the passive version or am i missing something critical? thanks z.
 

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Passively, it appears to be a mess in those published polars. It's a shame they didn't show the sonogram like they did for the 8".


My work over the past several months has demonstrated that while the location of the vertical nulls may be controlling, the shape of the forward lobe matters, as well, in establishing the effective -6 dB vertical beamwidth.


2352 is one of my favorite horns. However, you will note in the pics that I also aim it at listening height. I have never measured the vertical polars; that's all new stuff in the arsenal here....
 

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"it appears to be a mess in those published polars"


i see where you are coming from now.
 

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Noticed several Pi4 threads being created or resurrected on Wayne's forum. Then I come here and see this thread. Awesome. The kit seems almost perfect for a particular niche. I know it tickles my funny bone. Ummm...that doesn't sound right but ...you know what I mean.



CZ, saw your thread about stands. I will have to make some for mine when I build them. The bottom of my AT screen is 24" off the floor so I'll have to make them about that high. Wayne mentions issues with floorbounce around that height too. What were you going to do?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian /forum/post/18315079


Wayne mentions issues with floorbounce around that height too. What were you going to do?

There's not much you can do about it as it's a time of flight cancellation, except put suitable absorption on the floor that works to below the bounce frequency.


It's not that big an issue though as we're used to hearing it with all sounds not coming from flush with the floor, eg conversation.
 

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"Wayne mentions issues with floorbounce around that height too."


william cowan experimented with some speakers that had a 15" driver mounted to a unity horn, crossed at 300hz i think. he was concerned about two things. first was whether a single 15" would give him the dynamics he needed and second whether floor bounce would be a practical issue (his 15" was mounted about 18" or so up the cab). he said that neither concerns turned out to be a practial issue.


wayne parham runs his 4 pi's on stands, i think and has commented that floor bounce is not as large of a practical issue as theory would suggest. the downside with stands is that you don't get quite the bass lift as you would otherwise, so may need a tiny bit of eq on the bass end.




http://www.cowanaudio.com/ [click on unity horn speakers on the left side]
 
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