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Hello,

I did some shopping around a few months ago and Im finally in position to pull the trigger.(Wife thinks otherwise, but thats another story)


My favorite speaker from listening to a vareity of models was the B&W cdm 7nt. After going back to the store, i find that the salesperson i was dealing with is no longer there and the price i thought i recievd, 1700 was no longer any good. They want close to 2grand for the speakers now, and I was wondering about some alternatives.


Would the rocket 750s or any of the higherend Axioms compare well with the 7nt? I bought a B&W center channel (lcr 6s2 i believe) back then in anticipation for the cdm, but for the price of some these packages, i can replace my entire setup for the cost of the B&W alone.


Again, im looking for something very much like the 7nt, and im willing to scrap all the other spkrs in to another room to do it.


Any advice is welcome.

TIA,

K Kim
 

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Be very careful of what you read on speaker forums concerning certain hot ticket speaker items. B&W is a long established and highly respected brand, unlike certain other internet brands.


From what I read, from awhile back, Divas were THE hot internet ticket. Then it was the Rockets that were THE hot ticket. And each time they were described as THE PERFECT speaker. And now the perfect Rocket has been replaced by the new Refs. Guess what the next perfect internet speaker will be?


I guess these days speaker technology is surpassing the computer chip industry in terms of technological breakthroughs and reaching ever high plateaus of perfections. I imagine at this pace, im a year or two, we will have speakers that will have the ability to precisely control the atomic movement of every single atom in the woofer, achieving the purist sonic perfection.


I can't wait for the successor of the Ref line to come to the market.
 

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Why not check out PSB or Paradigm or Energy if you haven't already? These are very similar to the sound of B&Ws and offer more bang for the buck in my opinion. The Canadian and British sound were very similar with the Canadians offering a brighter, livelier treble and deeper, punchier bass that does HT pretty well. But the modern British sounds seems more like the Canadian sound. Heck, Paradigm even uses dyed yellow cones! I like the NHTs (of course) and find the ST4 to be very competitive with the CDM7s, yet different sounding, so you may or may not find them a good alternative. Or, you could just find a used set.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by kyungkim
...Would the rocket 750s or any of the higherend Axioms compare well with the 7nt? I bought a B&W center channel (lcr 6s2 i believe) back then in anticipation for the cdm, but for the price of some these packages, i can replace my entire setup for the cost of the B&W alone...


Any advice is welcome.

TIA,

K Kim
Kyungkim,


Good question...but this is one that only you can answer for yourself...Since we don't hear things the same, what may sound "bright" to you may sound "veiled" to someone else. that said, everyone's opinion on speakers is just that - their opinion.


My recommendation is that you try to audition the Rockets or Axioms for yourself preferably alongside the B&W 7nt. If this isn't possible, at least try to audition the internet offerings at someone's home. There should be some Rocket owners in the NY area who wouldn't mind inviting you over for an audition. You may try checking www.audioenvy.com for ask over on the av123 forum.


Now this is just MY opinion...I've owned and auditioned many speakers and I've found that the Rockets are an EXCELLENT value for the money. There is no speaker that can come close to their aesthetics and build quality in their price range. I feel that their sound competes with speakers that sell for alot more but that's what my ears tell me. They are smooth, articulate, and detailed. Are there better speakers? YES! But most cost a significant amount more to match the Rockets in sound, finish and looks.


Regarding B&W speakers, they are very good speakers, but value they do not offer. For the price of a complete Rocket package you wouldn't even be able to buy a complete B&W DM6XX equivalent setup. And the DM600s are finished in vinyl. In regards to sound, the DM600s aren't even close to the Rockets to me and my wife. But please keep in mind that this is just my opinion.


Hopefully this helps some! Good luck and happy listening! :)
 

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K Kim,


Another consideration:


If you are like "some of us" and trade in / upgrade your equipment semi frequently - then I would suggest the B&W's as they will have a higher resale value. Also more audio stores would be willing to take them as trades or consignment as they recognize the name / reputation. Not everybody is internet connected and if they are and are into audio / HT may not have heard of the Rockets.
 

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Please don't try and compare B & Ws to a second rate, internet based hifi company that is ' supposedly ' the latest and greatest The Rockets is just a Bose equivilent.


B & W is a multi million dollar manuf that has been around for decades. Any bogus internet only company will be here today, and gone tomorrow.... as the saying goes.


You get what you pay for, and if you have to pay a middle man like a hifi shop to be there when you need them, e.g., customer service, advice, etc... then the extra premium is well worth the sacrifice monetarily.


Yes, avoiding the middle man is a good idea in many ways, but if you ever have ' issues ' with your purchased gear - the hifi shop will be there for you.


Best example on customer service: Rocket vs B & W = Target vs Nordstrom = no comparison.


You can't really go wrong with a company like B & W. The likes of ' Boston, NHT, Energy, Paradigm, PSB ' are ok, but at these same price points B & W still runs circles around the others in every way. esp if your gear isn't top notch.


Stop being a cheap skate with your cash, and let your ears do the talking and the walking. If you have to .... save your money for a year or two so you can really buy the gear you want and need to satisfy that craving we all suffer from..... we are all gear heads whether we admit it or not.


I bought the gear I wanted, but I saved my cash for many moons, and I don't have regrets doing it that way.
 

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Audiohaven - little of what you wrote is helpful to kyungkim. I think if he had the cash or the means to save it he would. Who knows what else he has going on in his life. Take it easy on him. Besides - no one is saying B&W's aren't good.


EC brings up a good point. Most B&W dealers will let you upgrade after a year. there's a catch with the on in my area though - to get full price back when you upgrade, you have to spend double on the upgrade. i.e. trade in $1000 means you can't upgrade to $1500... you need to spend $2000... Just something to watch out for.


Lastly - all the people in all the forums can't be completely tone deaf! All these Axiom, PSB, Rocket and NHT owners obviously compared before they purchased and are happy with their final choices. (ok - ok - that's a gross understatement). But you get the point. Don't be afraid to try them. I've been looking long and hard and before I buy I will order Rockets and or Axioms so I can hear them. I think their policy of testing them in your home ought to be more pervasive in the industry!
 

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Quote:
EC brings up a good point. Most B&W dealers will let you upgrade after a year. there's a catch with the on in my area though - to get full price back when you upgrade, you have to spend double on the upgrade. i.e. trade in $1000 means you can't upgrade to $1500... you need to spend $2000... Just something to watch out for.
The store I bought my B&W DM602 series 2's from gave me %100 full trade in value within a year of my purchase. (This was Listen Up Audio in Denver). So different stores have different trade in values. I completely concur that the B&W will have MUCH greater trade in value, but I believe the one thing that EC states that IS helpful, although veiled in snarkyness ;) is that we have no idea how long ********** is going to stay in business. Because of the fact that they have no sales floor representation they could easily go out of business over night. Look at the owners of Diva speakers, they are %100 completely out of luck when it comes to picking up more Diva speakers, this isn't the case with me as a B&W owner, I can buy speakers which match my current ones tonally, and I can also find used speakers to match my Series 2 indentically. My speakers are DEFINITELY not Vinvl by the way, they are MDF with a real wood veneer exterior. Did AV123 start building their cabinets out of Ebony when I wasn't looking?
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by kyungkim
Hello,

I did some shopping around a few months ago and Im finally in position to pull the trigger.(Wife thinks otherwise, but thats another story)


My favorite speaker from listening to a vareity of models was the B&W cdm 7nt. After going back to the store, i find that the salesperson i was dealing with is no longer there and the price i thought i recievd, 1700 was no longer any good. They want close to 2grand for the speakers now, and I was wondering about some alternatives.


Would the rocket 750s or any of the higherend Axioms compare well with the 7nt? I bought a B&W center channel (lcr 6s2 i believe) back then in anticipation for the cdm, but for the price of some these packages, i can replace my entire setup for the cost of the B&W alone.


Again, im looking for something very much like the 7nt, and im willing to scrap all the other spkrs in to another room to do it.


Any advice is welcome.

TIA,

K Kim
If you know what to look for regarding cabinetry, driver quality, design, etc. it's quite apparent that the Onix Rockets certainly do give the B&W CDM's a run for their money. The wild card is sound quality via cabinet, x-over design, and voicing choices and that's been well covered on this forum and others. Axiom would be more the equivilent of the DM 600 Series, both being vinyl covered speakers, but good ones at that.


BTW, Swans Diva speakers are still available but through a different distributor and drivers are still widely available as well. In any case, even though some speaker companies have been around for decades, speaker lines change and there's never any guarantee that replacements will be available. The B&W Matrix or the 600 S2 lines are just two examples. Trade up policies are paid for in advance by the buyer.


As to other comments in this thread, you can certainly seperate the wheat from the chaff without any assistance from me.


Good luck with your decision.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by policy
I completely concur that the B&W will have MUCH greater trade in value, but I believe the one thing that EC states that IS helpful, although veiled in snarkyness ;) is that we have no idea how long ********** is going to stay in business.
Policy - no snarkyness was intended intended :p The point I was trying to make is that if you were to visit various bricks and mortar audio dealers, they will mostly likely heard of the B&W brand and not the Rocket brand. By extension their customers would be more familiar with the B&W brand over the Rocket brand and thus an easier resale. If you went to 20 stores with a pair of B&W's and a pair of Rockets and asked them to sell them for you on consignment or use them towards a trade in, chances are they would be more willing to do so for the B&W's regardless of which speaker is "better".
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by bigwally
The B&W Matrix or the 600 S2 lines are just two examples.
B&W keeps drivers around for years after a line is discontinued. It might be 10 years after production ceases when you cannot get drivers anymore. And if it is that far out of production, you can always get them re-coned by B&W. Somehow, I find it sketchy to even think that the internet speakers can provide the same stability.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by scooter_29
B&W keeps drivers around for years after a line is discontinued. It might be 10 years after production ceases when you cannot get drivers anymore. And if it is that far out of production, you can always get them re-coned by B&W. Somehow, I find it sketchy to even think that the internet speakers can provide the same stability.
so let's suppose i currently own a pair of B&W DM603S1s for 2 channel use that i purchased 4 years ago...now i want to expand my setup for HT and would like to use the 603S1s for mains, but the DM6XX series has gone through 2 generations so there's no matching center or surrounds for my mains. sure the drivers are still in production but that won't do me any good in this instance. i'd still need to replace the 603s1s to get a matched HT setup.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by policy
...Look at the owners of Diva speakers, they are %100 completely out of luck when it comes to picking up more Diva speakers...
enter www.theaudioinsider.com
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by policy
...My speakers are DEFINITELY not Vinvl by the way, they are MDF with a real wood veneer exterior...
i don't know what you have now, but the B&W DM600 series speakers you owned are finished with vinyl.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by audioheaven
Please don't try and compare B & Ws to a second rate, internet based hifi company that is ' supposedly ' the latest and greatest The Rockets is just a Bose equivilent.


B & W is a multi million dollar manuf that has been around for decades. Any bogus internet only company will be here today, and gone tomorrow.... as the saying goes.
I'm not here to defend AV123 or ACI, but in the case of ACI, they've been around for 25 years. There are no guarantees in life, but that's a pretty good history. My _personal_ opinion if I had to place a bet is that B&W will outlast them, but, I don't know :)


You may or may not like the direct-sales model, but, it's here to stay, and in some cases can offer some terrific value.


Having said all that, I am sometimes sceptical at the amazing reports on some of the direct-sales speakers. I do sometimes wonder if the folks listening have truely heard top-of-the-line stuff. But, in some cases they specifically say they have, so, I have to take them at their word. Finally, as has been said before a zillion times, speakers are a very personal preference. If they sound good to you, then that's what's important at the end of the day when you go sit down to listen to your system.


Jeff
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by audioheaven
Any bogus internet only company will be here today, and gone tomorrow.... as the saying goes.
Another saying is that there's an exception to every rule and I'm sure there are others that apply here also to refute this assumption. I disagree with the notion that Internet-only automatically implies compromised longevity and less than excellent support in any possible way and the evidence solidly backs me up: Internet distribution is, and must be, actually superior to succeed.


And yes, there are many fine brands distributed via the traditional channel: Importer to national distributor; nat dist to regional distributor; regional to dealer; dealer to customer. But today there are many equally fine direct-to-customer options in the Internet channel, and they do not compromise performance or quality. They certainly don't compromise value of customer security.


Consider that just one brand, Swans, (yes, I have a professional stake in this brand, but you posed the subject so I feel obligated to reply as respectfully as I can) is literally one of the most experienced and largest in the entire audio industry, questioning the notion that they'll "be here and gone tomorrow." With one million square feet in production and hundreds of thousands of units shipped each and every year, Swans parent manufacturer is going absolutely nowhere. Meanwhile our scores of customers routinely tell us their quality is - get this - second to none in their respective price range.


I really do appreciate the concern expressed, but the truth is that there are no legitimate reasons to doubt many of the Internet options currently available. I'm sure I speak for many of my friends in parallel efforts to my own who have built themselves fine reputations for excellent quality products and reliable service before, during, and after the sale.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by policy
Look at the owners of Diva speakers, they are %100 completely out of luck when it comes to picking up more Diva speakers, this isn't the case with me as a B&W owner, I can buy speakers which match my current ones tonally, and I can also find used speakers to match my Series 2 indentically. My speakers are DEFINITELY not Vinvl by the way, they are MDF with a real wood veneer exterior. Did AV123 start building their cabinets out of Ebony when I wasn't looking?
If I may...


Swans (Diva) is and has always been alive and well. See my previous post, please. Not only is Swans doing well, but they're rolling out conventional national distribution as we speak through traditional retail channels in parallel to direct-to-customer, Internet sales of real rosewood veneered "Diva's." That's right, the conventional distribution chain does not permit the real rosewood Swans to enter the market at the tremendously competitive prices of the Internet-direct purchase option. Retail buyers may pay for PVC siding on their otherwise identical product what Internet buyers pay for real hardwood!


Read: The Internet buyer enjoys superior quality, not inferior quality.


As far as warranty, at The Audio Insider we're actually taking referrals from previous Swans distribution and, at our expense handling claims. If this isn't seamless customer support, I am at a loss as to what is.


I do not want to appear shrill, but I do want to put to rest notions that Internet distribution in some way impairs the full delivery of all of the customer benefits of conventional distribution. It does not. In fact, it could be argued that Internet-direct is also the most direct channel of communications between manufacturer and user - think about the sheer efficiency of this method!


Thanks again for raising the opportunity to respond to these very legitimate concerns (and they are completely legitimate.) As always, we look forward to helping customers - past, present, and future - in any way we can.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by scooter_29
B&W keeps drivers around for years after a line is discontinued. It might be 10 years after production ceases when you cannot get drivers anymore. And if it is that far out of production, you can always get them re-coned by B&W. Somehow, I find it sketchy to even think that the internet speakers can provide the same stability.
And lastly, if I may...


Swan's parent offers complete support for all past products. Being completely vertically integrated (how many high end brands can make that claim?) they have yet to fail to completely support driver needs for any model they've ever made. Let me give us a taste of their capacity:


Swan's produced over 3 million drivers last year. And the year before, and the year before... This production supports not only Swan's annual run of 600,000 finished loudspeakers but over 500 traditional dealers (soon to expand by half again) and an extensive network of OEM driver users from many other speaker brands, including some of the very best in the world, on virtually every industralized continent.


To back up this vast capability, Swans is also ISO 9002 certified and in their region, Swans pioneered the use of LMS, LEAP, B&K, TEF, MLSSA, CLIO, Ansoft, Redrock, Protel, 3D Max and Solidworks.


This, my friends, is power. Let it work for you. ;)
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Jon Lane
If I may...


Swans (Diva) is and has always been alive and well. See my previous post, please. Not only is Swans doing well, but they're rolling out conventional national distribution as we speak through traditional retail channels in parallel to direct-to-customer, Internet sales of real rosewood veneered "Diva's." That's right, the conventional distribution chain does not permit the real rosewood Swans to enter the market at the tremendously competitive prices of the Internet-direct purchase option. Retail buyers may pay for PVC siding on their otherwise identical product what Internet buyers pay for real hardwood!


Read: The Internet buyer enjoys superior quality, not inferior quality.



John, thanks for taking the time to clarify all this. I was just at your website, http://www.theaudioinsider.com/cgi-b...r/speaker.html looking at the various offerings. The 6.1 sure seems to be aiming at the CDM9NT and/or 804, eh? :)


Two questions:


1) the frequency response specs seem meaningless without some kind of tolerance. Can you clarify what the tolerance is on the specs at the website? And can you please ask the folks running the website to add these tolerancs?


2) Can your dipole surrounds look tasty :), especially the R3 model. Is there any way to run them in phase? I.E., is there any kind of dipole/bipole switch? Are there any plans to sell a monopole version of this, and/or, one that is monopole/xxpole switchable?


Thanks,



As far as warranty, at The Audio Insider we're actually taking referrals from previous Swans distribution and, at our expense handling claims. If this isn't seamless customer support, I am at a loss as to what is.


I do not want to appear shrill, but I do want to put to rest notions that Internet distribution in some way impairs the full delivery of all of the customer benefits of conventional distribution. It does not. In fact, it could be argued that Internet-direct is also the most direct channel of communications between manufacturer and user - think about the sheer efficiency of this method!


Thanks again for raising the opportunity to respond to these very legitimate concerns (and they are completely legitimate.) As always, we look forward to helping customers - past, present, and future - in any way we can.
[/quote]
 

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Well, as you can see, I've messed up the quoting in the above post. I apologize. My post ended after the line that said,


Thanks


The additional remarks regarding warranty were from Jon.


Sorry for the confusion.
 
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