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I have always been a B&W owner. A couple of years ago, I bought a pair of used 804D2, my first tower speakers. I was too excited then to search for reviews. Last week I found the reveiew by Kalman Rubinson and the measurements by John Atkinson. Unfortunatly, if I can say, I read the 3rd edition of F.E.Toole book, a bible about speakers and room!. I've learn that the best speakers have a flat response on axis and off-axis too. So I am now desappointed espacially when see this graph and Atkinson conclusion (see attachment).
I am surprise that B&W can't acheive a better flat on axis speakers...at this price...we would expect more, isn't it?
What do you think fellow B&W owners?
 

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Confused though... you are buying an pre-pro right now (the marantz) if your ps5, Xbox, and pc are connected to the marantz/Rotel via hdmi, and that single monitor out hdmi is ARC for example, only your picture is passed via the ARC HDMI to your LG isn’t it? Whereas your audio is processed lossless at the pre-pro and onto your amplifier. Now if your talking the 8K or 4K/120hz aspect then that’s different, or if you are using the apps from the LG itself for streaming lossless. I think?
The 7706 only has one HDMI 2.1 in and out. So if you wanted to use multiple devices on HDMI 2.1 I would need to plug the rest into my C9 and pass the audio via eArc to the Marantz. If you dont. have eARC you cant pass lossless audio. If the 7706 had multiple 2.1 ports then it wouldn't matter for those devices. Only thee built in Apps would not be able to pass non compressed Atmos for example.
 

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I have always been a B&W owner. A couple of years ago, I bought a pair of used 804D2, my first tower speakers. I was too excited then to search for reviews. Last week I found the reveiew by Kalman Rubinson and the measurements by John Atkinson. Unfortunatly, if I can say, I read the 3rd edition of F.E.Toole book, a bible about speakers and room!. I've learn that the best speakers have a flat response on axis and off-axis too. So I am now desappointed espacially when see this graph and Atkinson conclusion (see attachment).
I am surprise that B&W can't acheive a better flat on axis speakers...at this price...we would expect more, isn't it?
What do you think fellow B&W owners?
I'm not B&W owner, but I'll just tell you that speakers being flat on axis is probably the least important thing if we talk about sound quality - with all due respect to Mr. Floyd Toole. I'm pretty sure that B&W or any other speaker engineers can make speakers with flat FR if that was important.
 
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I have always been a B&W owner. A couple of years ago, I bought a pair of used 804D2, my first tower speakers. I was too excited then to search for reviews. Last week I found the reveiew by Kalman Rubinson and the measurements by John Atkinson. Unfortunatly, if I can say, I read the 3rd edition of F.E.Toole book, a bible about speakers and room!. I've learn that the best speakers have a flat response on axis and off-axis too. So I am now desappointed espacially when see this graph and Atkinson conclusion (see attachment).
I am surprise that B&W can't acheive a better flat on axis speakers...at this price...we would expect more, isn't it?
What do you think fellow B&W owners?
If you’ve enjoyed them for a couple years and are now disappointed I’d suggest you stop reading reviews.
 

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If you’ve enjoyed them for a couple years and are now disappointed I’d suggest you stop reading reviews.
I am disappointed from an intellectual point of view if I can say that. It is impossible for me to compare with a more flat speaker to hear the difference. Is it a great or not difference in my environnement, i can't say. I will continue to enjoy them but what if...?
Or to say it differently: if it is a known fact that flat on axis response is preferred by most people and knowing B&W capabilties, why do they choose not manufacture a flatter speker. Maybe they have good reason not to but I don't know them.
 

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800 series owners, are you using the supplied jumper cables or are you bi-wiring with speaker cable? Is there any discernible differnce?
 

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I have always been a B&W owner. A couple of years ago, I bought a pair of used 804D2, my first tower speakers. I was too excited then to search for reviews. Last week I found the reveiew by Kalman Rubinson and the measurements by John Atkinson. Unfortunatly, if I can say, I read the 3rd edition of F.E.Toole book, a bible about speakers and room!. I've learn that the best speakers have a flat response on axis and off-axis too. So I am now desappointed espacially when see this graph and Atkinson conclusion (see attachment).
I am surprise that B&W can't acheive a better flat on axis speakers...at this price...we would expect more, isn't it?
What do you think fellow B&W owners?
This is the generic frequency response curve for all D1/D2/D3 speakers from B&W. This is not because they are unable make it flat ;)

Wide dip around 2.5khz, built up to peak around 10khz and a smaller/narrower dip on the way up around 7.5kHz. This is by design.
 

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800 series owners, are you using the supplied jumper cables or are you bi-wiring with speaker cable? Is there any discernible differnce?
I've made several tries bi-wiring or not and took mesures with REW without finding any significant changes in the response graphs. Sometimes I thought there was a difference and other times, not. Also having I read a lot on the subject and now I tend to agree that our brain can tricks us and only blind testings could tell.
 

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(...)
Wide dip around 2.5khz, built up to peak around 10khz and a smaller/narrower dip on the way up around 7.5kHz. This is by design.
I follow you; I'd like to know the reasonning behind this design. Sure there is a good one.
 

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800 series owners, are you using the supplied jumper cables or are you bi-wiring with speaker cable? Is there any discernible differnce?
I ordered a nordost jumper will go collect it during weekends so will change my existing D3 stock jumper, as i had great result with nordost jumper on my Kef R700 without using the in build interlink knob.....soundstage was wider and vocal more precise as Kef R700 is a dark sounding speaker so it benefit from it.....wonder how it does for D3 as ppl says is a bright sounding speaker
 

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I ordered a nordost jumper will go collect it during weekends so will change my existing D3 stock jumper, as i had great result with nordost jumper on my Kef R700 without using the in build interlink knob.....soundstage was wider and vocal more precise as Kef R700 is a dark sounding speaker so it benefit from it.....wonder how it does for D3 as ppl says is a bright sounding speaker
There are lots of ways to throw away and waste money. This is just one of them but not the only one. I mean how are these Nordost jumper wires going to conduct current better than the heavy thick gold plated B&W jumper clips?
 

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There are lots of ways to throw away and waste money. This is just one of them but not the only one. I mean how are these Nordost jumper wires going to conduct current better than the heavy thick gold plated B&W jumper clips?
Well you can choose to believe or not to believe but it does make a difference to my KEF and it doesn't cost like thousand of dollars on the jumper just 130usd you could go to your nearby store to try it don't have to directly says is a waste of money without even trying.....
 

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Well you can choose to believe or not to believe but it does make a difference to my KEF and it doesn't cost like thousand of dollars on the jumper just 130usd you could go to your nearby store to try it don't have to directly says is a waste of money without even trying.....
Right. My local audio dealer fed me almost the exact same line word-for-word on his "audio quality" ethernet cable that, get this, goes between the ethernet router and the internet provider. I mean how can I rule it out without trying it and letting my ears decide? Fortunately, there are tons of scientific papers that explain exactly that and why you should not let your ears decide.

 

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Right. My local audio dealer fed me almost the exact same line word-for-word on his "audio quality" ethernet cable that, get this, goes between the ethernet router and the internet provider. I mean how can I rule it out without trying it and letting my ears decide? Fortunately, there are tons of scientific papers that explain exactly that and why you should not let your ears decide.

Well a person won't believe without trying is always using science theory to backup their claim....but a person who try it before will believe what he or she heard......in the end is my system if you think it just a waste of money then stick to your belden cables with your 802D3 but i choose what i believe in no offense....i love my oil...ya audioholics the genie he himself using a thousand dollars kimber kable speaker cables if really cables makes no difference he should have used a lamp cord instead saving tons of money he wrote those just to make those majority ppl love him deep inside he is a believer

Genie's system= a pair of Kimber Kable Monocle XL Speaker Cables retail £1,450.00
 

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I follow you; I'd like to know the reasonning behind this design. Sure there is a good one.
I have an educated guess. That 2.5kHz dip sounds to me like the old BBC dip, incorporated into BBC-designed speakers systems of the 60s and 70s. For complicated reasons having to do with cone materials and crossover designs, those frequency ranges were problematic, and engineers de-emphasized them to mask poor reproduction.

A side effect here is that the sound stage recedes a bit - people describe the speakers incorporating this dip as sounding less "forward," or, the speakers "get out of the way."

This attribute became associated with British speakers in general, and has come to be part of the "house sound" for British speakers, B&W included. Even though advances in driver, crossover and waveguide design have made it possible to build pretty flat speakers (both on and off axis), B&W is tuning their speaker to sound like what people expect B&W speakers to sound like.
 

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Well a person won't believe without trying is always using science theory to backup their claim....but a person who try it before will believe what he or she heard......in the end is my system if you think it just a waste of money then stick to your belden cables with your 802D3 but i choose what i believe in no offense....i love my oil...ya audioholics the genie he himself using a thousand dollars kimber kable speaker cables if really cables makes no difference he should have used a lamp cord instead saving tons of money he wrote those just to make those majority ppl love him deep inside he is a believer

Genie's system= a pair of Kimber Kable Monocle XL Speaker Cables retail £1,450.00
Pointing out some other nut bag that uses $1500 cables isn't really helping your case here :) Many of those guys using expensive cables got them for free or are paid to use them because it convinces somewhat gullible folks to buy those expensive cables (see, it worked you're convinced).

Generally, I'm for doing side-by-side tests to see which is better. But in the area of audio cabling, its really misleading and there are scientific reasons why people think they hear differences. This is why double blind testing is done to actually determine if people actually hear differences.

You realize that inside your speakers there are more wires, right? What sort of wire cables do you think those are?
 

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Pointing out some other nut bag that uses $1500 cables isn't really helping your case here :) Many of those guys using expensive cables got them for free or are paid to use them because it convinces somewhat gullible folks to buy those expensive cables (see, it worked you're convinced).

Generally, I'm for doing side-by-side tests to see which is better. But in the area of audio cabling, its really misleading and there are scientific reasons why people think they hear differences. This is why double blind testing is done to actually determine if people actually hear differences.

You realize that inside your speakers there are more wires, right? What sort of wire cables do you think those are?
Nope it doesn't convince me to buy higher end cables i don't use kimber kable just that this so call genie used it, it doesn't work well in my system even if the speaker cable cost 10k must be damn good so i must buy it by seeing the price....i also using basic speakers cables which slowly upgrading to higher end cables... borrow back home to try if it doesn't work or sound awful i just simply return it....not here to convince those so-called audio engineers, scientist and researchers if you don't believe is fine with me....just pointing out some ppl says that monoprice cables are the best but in the back using "high end cables" is a business tactics as there are majority like u.... so i would say what majority says so they happy they buy from me.....anyways i am happy with my system that's good enough for me
 

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Nope it doesn't convince me to buy higher end cables i don't use kimber kable just that this so call genie used it, it doesn't work well in my system even if the speaker cable cost 10k must be damn good so i must buy it by seeing the price....i also using basic speakers cables which slowly upgrading to higher end cables... borrow back home to try if it doesn't work or sound awful i just simply return it....not here to convince those so-called audio engineers, scientist and researchers if you don't believe is fine with me....just pointing out some ppl says that monoprice cables are the best but in the back using "high end cables" is a business tactics as there are majority like u.... so i would say what majority says so they happy they buy from me.....anyways i am happy with my system that's good enough for me
Here is a great quote in another thread related to passive bi-amping (which isn't much different than bi-wiring) and the discussion of bias. I think this is very relevant to this discussion we are having.
Bi-amping (passive) is always worthless, including when using four, separate monoblock amplifiers (instead of two). Thanks to the power of suggestion people who try it though usually report it to be "beneficial" because they rarely take steps to preclude expectation bias ("the placebo effect"). Just like the world's very first audio gear marketer put it:

"People will hear what you tell them to hear." - Thomas Edison


Boy he nailed it and this was so long ago that electrical amplifiers hadn't even been invented yet!
 

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You realize that inside your speakers there are more wires, right? What sort of wire cables do you think those are?
Bowers and Wilkins using Vandenhul's internal wiring so your speaker inside also having those oil as well for your info...maybe u could change by resoldering to lamp cord wire or belden as it sounds the same as well
 

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I have an educated guess. That 2.5kHz dip sounds to me like the old BBC dip, incorporated into BBC-designed speakers systems of the 60s and 70s. For complicated reasons having to do with cone materials and crossover designs, those frequency ranges were problematic, and engineers de-emphasized them to mask poor reproduction.

A side effect here is that the sound stage recedes a bit - people describe the speakers incorporating this dip as sounding less "forward," or, the speakers "get out of the way."

This attribute became associated with British speakers in general, and has come to be part of the "house sound" for British speakers, B&W included. Even though advances in driver, crossover and waveguide design have made it possible to build pretty flat speakers (both on and off axis), B&W is tuning their speaker to sound like what people expect B&W speakers to sound like.
Thank you. It makes sense.
 
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