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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18000#post_24657198


The big difference to me between any pre-pro or AVR is the Subwoofer EQ and Dynamic EQ software.


I've listened to ARC, Audyssey XT32, and other software from Lexicon, Mark Levinson, Classe, Krell. It was never a direct comparison because they were all in different rooms. But I have never been in awe with any room correction software. Not even once.


I don't even care for Audyssey itself. But the Audyssey Subwoofer EQ and Dynamic EQ is something I absolutely need in my pre-pro.


So you might want to compare the Marantz's XT32 Dual Sub EQ + Dynamic EQ vs. your current setup.

that is why I have some doubts, I have the denon with Audyssey MultEQ and for the size of my room having two subwoofer is overkill. if I could get better performance in multichannel I will go for it but if the final sound in movies or concert is the same I don't think so. I'm not looking nothing in stereo because the classe is giving the best in this option. how much better is Audyssey XT32 vs Audyssey MultEQ?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wse  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18030#post_24657497


Unfortunately, most of the expensive brands don't believe in automatic room correction except for McIntosh and DATASAT


That's my only issue with Classe and the likes!

They don't have the technical know-how to develop such a thing. They spend too much on sylists.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by leo2498  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18030#post_24658273


that is why I have some doubts, I have the denon with Audyssey MultEQ and for the size of my room having two subwoofer is overkill. if I could get better performance in multichannel I will go for it but if the final sound in movies or concert is the same I don't think so. I'm not looking nothing in stereo because the classe is giving the best in this option. how much better is Audyssey XT32 vs Audyssey MultEQ?

XT32 and its Pro version are much better, There is still a step up by using other and more manual versions but as consumer grade goes XT32 is not bad. I forgot how many steps there are between MultiEQ and XT32 but the end results are much better for most users.


Daniel.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyreman  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18030#post_24657953


Remove the grilles carefully

They pull off as you proly know, maybe grasp each side, star a bit at top

find a clean flat surface to work on

go slowly and take time when working

turn over and remove the side profile metal strips by undoing the small robertson head screws holding them to the grille board

replace any of the metal strips missing small round felt pads at some point

5 screws each side

set these pieces aside

then peel off the old grille


you may have to take time to re apply grille cloth and work from one side to other its been few years since I did someones

Ha... never noticed those small screws behind the felt pads. Awesome! Many thanks!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18030#post_24658536


They don't have the technical know-how to develop such a thing. They spend too much on sylists.

The excuse was well it's better to do it manually, to which I agree but it would be nice to have one of the high end Auto EQ like DIRAC, Room Perfect or even Audyssey XT 32.


I just think they don't want to pay the licensing fees which is unfortunate



I think that one if these days I might upgrade to McIntosh 151
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wse  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18030#post_24659478


The excuse was well it's better to do it manually, to which I agree but it would be nice to have one of the high end Auto EQ like DIRAC, Room Perfect or even Audyssey XT 32.


I just think they don't want to pay the licensing fees which is unfortunate



I think that one if these days I might upgrade to McIntosh 151

Actually, licensing fee's don't have much to do with it. I don't know much about home systems, but I know A LOT about car audio systems. I spent 14 years designing them (board level design).



In cars they have real time correction. Essentially there are multiple microphones in the car that attenuate the system and even change EQ slopes as the environment changes (i.e. roll down a window). The technology to do this is royalty free and its just R&D. They don't need to pay a ton of money in licensing. The difference in the car however is that the engineering team can determine the resonant frequency of the environment, and in home audio they cannot because it changes based on the room itself. The reason that car stereo systems have evolved 10 fold to home audio is because of the DSP trickery that can be done with code. At the same time, the room environment doesn't change as much as a car's environment does so its somewhat unnecessary to have DSP correction.


Sorry.... enginenerd came out of me for a second....
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wse  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18030#post_24659478


The excuse was well it's better to do it manually, to which I agree but it would be nice to have one of the high end Auto EQ like DIRAC, Room Perfect or even Audyssey XT 32.


I just think they don't want to pay the licensing fees which is unfortunate



I think that one if these days I might upgrade to McIntosh 151

A good part of the cost in the case of the MX are dedicated Room Perfect processors for each channel (8 total), besides licensing fees. It includes a calibrated mic (Earthquake?) and boom stand.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan30306  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18030#post_24659612


Actually, licensing fee's don't have much to do with it. I don't know much about home systems, but I know A LOT about car audio systems. I spent 14 years designing them (board level design).



In cars they have real time correction. Essentially there are multiple microphones in the car that attenuate the system and even change EQ slopes as the environment changes (i.e. roll down a window). The technology to do this is royalty free and its just R&D. They don't need to pay a ton of money in licensing. The difference in the car however is that the engineering team can determine the resonant frequency of the environment, and in home audio they cannot because it changes based on the room itself. The reason that car stereo systems have evolved 10 fold to home audio is because of the DSP trickery that can be done with code. At the same time, the room environment doesn't change as much as a car's environment does so its somewhat unnecessary to have DSP correction.


Sorry.... enginenerd came out of me for a second....

Yes I heard the Mark Levinson system in the Lexus and didn't want to leave it was really impressive!
 

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A pair of 683S2's and an HT61S2 were delivered to my home on Friday - I was one very happy camper!


...until Sunday, when I discovered that my 3 1/2 year old LG Plasma had developed a line just right of center.
It's one pixel wide, but of course I can see it perfectly, especially with warm colors (red, orange, etc) where it's black. The "cold" colors (blue, green, white, etc) it turns a light green. Since I'm outside of both the manufacturer and extended warranty, the cost to replace the panel is in the $1500 area....yeah, probably not.



I think I know the answer to this, but I'm gonna ask the resident experts: it was recommended by the dealer that I consider replacing the jumpers between the binding posts on my speakers with spare bits of speaker wire. He went onto explain that "they're all crap...even the ones on the 800 series are crap, we replace them immediately". This led into a discussion on the benefits of Transparent Audio's cables ($200 a pair). This sounds suspiciously like upselling, but I'm sure the folks here have had much more time with your speakers than I have. What say you?


Thx,


Mike
 

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Upselling. All you need to make sure of on the cables is that they are 100%copper. You can get them at most hardware stores.

Save your money for the TV. Fwiw, I have had the same binding posts on my 683 s 1 for over five years, no problems, and that includes three international moves.


Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McStyvie  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18030#post_24660414


Upselling. All you need to make sure of on the cables is that they are 100%copper. You can get them at most hardware stores.

Save your money for the TV. Fwiw, I have had the same binding posts on my 683 s 1 for over five years, no problems, and that includes three international moves.


Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

Thanks McStyvie - that was my assessment as well.


Back to the great LED search....grumble, grumble, grumble. Thank God Amazon's got a 2 year no interest offer right now!
 

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Back Away immediately! Snake oil in huge quantities. I've have the original jumpers on my B&W Nautilus 805s for years with nary a problem. Sounds like your salesman may be lining you up for the kill by going from jumpers to feet and feet of "quality" speaker wire.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJMcMahon  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18030#post_24660397


A pair of 683S2's and an HT61S2 were delivered to my home on Friday - I was one very happy camper!


...until Sunday, when I discovered that my 3 1/2 year old LG Plasma had developed a line just right of center.
It's one pixel wide, but of course I can see it perfectly, especially with warm colors (red, orange, etc) where it's black. The "cold" colors (blue, green, white, etc) it turns a light green. Since I'm outside of both the manufacturer and extended warranty, the cost to replace the panel is in the $1500 area....yeah, probably not.



I think I know the answer to this, but I'm gonna ask the resident experts: it was recommended by the dealer that I consider replacing the jumpers between the binding posts on my speakers with spare bits of speaker wire. He went onto explain that "they're all crap...even the ones on the 800 series are crap, we replace them immediately". This led into a discussion on the benefits of Transparent Audio's cables ($200 a pair). This sounds suspiciously like upselling, but I'm sure the folks here have had much more time with your speakers than I have. What say you?


Thx,


Mike

The 800 line comes with small wires not jumper plates to this doesn't sense as wires go they look very normal and well made.


Daniel.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by luisev  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18030#post_24658882


Ha... never noticed those small screws behind the felt pads. Awesome! Many thanks!

The small plated Robertson screws are spaced in between the felt pads

you won't miss seeing them

Its just some units I have worked on the little round pads are off or have partially come off/worn off
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wse  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18030#post_24659478


I think that one if these days I might upgrade to McIntosh 151

A Mac, really? Why not a Datasat? Too pricey? The Mac at this point is obsolete tech wise in a numebr of ways as are so many high end processors at the moment. Not having at least PLIIz let alone Neo:X seems like limiting your future options. Frankly in a high end SSP given the prices of them I personally would not want to see Audyessy in any configuration, I would prefer to see the likes of Dirac or Trinnov. For surround processing you will see Auro 3D start popping up soon then after that who knows maybe Atmos and MDA will make a showing in the consumer market. Then there is this whole 4k video business, you need to at least make sure the onboard HDMI can at least pass through true 4k at all of it's specs and the HDMI 2.0 spec is apparently not to far off. It just seems like a bad time to invest in a high end SSP at the moment. Granted most SSP's from Mac, Bryston, Classe, etc, etc.. do what they do very well but they are not necessairly upgradeable. If looking to upgrade I think going the receiver route to use as a SSP may be the safest thing for the next year or two.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod#S  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18030#post_24660851


A Mac, really? Why not a Datasat? Too pricey? The Mac at this point is obsolete tech wise in a numebr of ways as are so many high end processors at the moment. Not having at least PLIIz let alone Neo:X seems like limiting your future options. Frankly in a high end SSP given the prices of them I personally would not want to see Audyessy in any configuration, I would prefer to see the likes of Dirac or Trinnov. For surround processing you will see Auro 3D start popping up soon then after that who knows maybe Atmos and MDA will make a showing in the consumer market. Then there is this whole 4k video business, you need to at least make sure the onboard HDMI can at least pass through true 4k at all of it's specs and the HDMI 2.0 spec is apparently not to far off. It just seems like a bad time to invest in a high end SSP at the moment. Granted most SSP's from Mac, Bryston, Classe, etc, etc.. do what they do very well but they are not necessairly upgradeable. If looking to upgrade I think going the receiver route to use as a SSP may be the safest thing for the next year or two.

Hi Rod


I agree you wouldn't want to rely on Audyssey for a higher end processor, which the MX does not.


In terms of obsolescence, I think a lot has to do with need over the next few years. As someone who went full bore into 11.x with an 8801 and all D2 speakers, I can honestly say the sound field created by the 151 at 7.x is appreciably better than 9.x or 11.x from the 8801. For me, it was very hit or miss how PLIIz or Neo:X interpolated the additional channels. If new content comes with discrete 9 or 11 channel mixes, that may change things, but I've not read anything that indicates there is a surge in that direction from the industry. Perhaps this is also because the number of installations that can support 9 or 11 channels (not to mention sticking a speaker on ones ceiling), is very small compared to the overall market. A lot still run 5.1 because they cannot fit two additional rear speakers effectively.


4k is also slow coming but certainly more real than >7.x multi-channel audio. Still, I'd much prefer a Lumagen, like the 2041 I use, to manage input switching and adding the benefit of greyscale, gamma, CMS and other image calibration and enhancement tools. So when Lumagen offers their true 4k in/out model, I will upgrade to that with little hesitation, and 4k in my av processor won't be of much benefit, since I will only send audio to the processor and dedicated video feed to the projector (the Lumagens support dual configurable video outs for those not familiar). I'm surmising that many in the realm of these processors and higher end projectors and panels would prefer the benefits on the Lumagen and make their investment there. I've actually felt it would be wise for some of the higher end companies to license Lumagen tech, even as an outboard HDMI box, to solve a lot of the pain in development and support of their av processors


So while McIntosh is certainly working on their next generation processors (I'm guessing a replacement for the MX-121 is also coming, perhaps even first given some of the older technology in that unit), a new MX-161 will not be an automatic upgrade if its largely for more full range channels or 4k passthrough. Next generation Room Perfect, and an enhanced multiple subwoofer topology would be nice, and perhaps an integrated D100-style DAC. Clearly, 4k and more channels will be nearly a given, my only point is classifying the current unit as obsolete is not so clear based on practical needs for one's environment, and many won't be doing more than 7.x is my guess.


In terms of the Datasat, I've had two demos of the product at authorized dealers, and was not impressed at all, especially for the price. I am also somewhat leery of their future stability given their size and installed base. The cost basis of the Datasat, a separate video processor, the audio calibration kit (if you can even buy it, as you're supposed to hire your installer to perform the calibration), and questionable future resale value given their lack of market awareness and penetration make the Datasat a relatviely risky proposition in my eyes, unless one is comfortable losing the gamble.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wse  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18030#post_24660161


Yes I heard the Mark Levinson system in the Lexus and didn't want to leave it was really impressive!

Here's the interesting part.... that Mark Levinson system really isn't Mark Levinson.
Its actually part Panasonic and part Harman Becker automotive. The amps are made in Peachtree City, GA by Panasonic. So is the navigation system. The speakers are made by Harman and Delphi. The whole Mark Levinson branding is just that- a licensing agreement. More or less the way it works is Toyota/Lexus paid a lot for the brand name, and the entire Tier 1 supply base (Harman, Panasonic, Delphi, Continental, etc) all receive a RFQ from Toyota. The RFQ has the technical requirements of each component. Once you bid on the RFQ, the winner then does the design. The only thing Mark Levinson (Harman) does is help tune the system with the acoustic and DSP engineers.


Same thing goes for every single car audio system that is branded. Bose, ELS Surround, Bang-O, etc. They don't actually design/manufacture any of the circuits or components. At most they just tune and its just branding. I designed the Class D amps in Acura for the ELS Surround system. I also designed several Bose amps and also the navigation system (Fender branded) in VW. All at Panasonic.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan30306  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18030#post_24661229


Here's the interesting part.... that Mark Levinson system really isn't Mark Levinson.
Its actually part Panasonic and part Harman Becker automotive. The amps are made in Peachtree City, GA by Panasonic. So is the navigation system. The speakers are made by Harman and Delphi. The whole Mark Levinson branding is just that- a licensing agreement. More or less the way it works is Toyota/Lexus paid a lot for the brand name, and the entire Tier 1 supply base (Harman, Panasonic, Delphi, Continental, etc) all receive a RFQ from Toyota. The RFQ has the technical requirements of each component. Once you bid on the RFQ, the winner then does the design. The only thing Mark Levinson (Harman) does is help tune the system with the acoustic and DSP engineers.


Same thing goes for every single car audio system that is branded. Bose, ELS Surround, Bang-O, etc. They don't actually design/manufacture any of the circuits or components. At most they just tune and its just branding. I designed the Class D amps in Acura for the ELS Surround system. I also designed several Bose amps and also the navigation system (Fender branded) in VW. All at Panasonic.

Interesting...I owned an LS460 with the Levinson sound a few years back and was not impressed at all...


Recently, I test drove a new Jaguar XJ with the Meridian sound system...THAT did sound impressive, though I have no idea how much of that is Meridian tech...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18030#post_24661050


Hi Rod


I agree you wouldn't want to rely on Audyssey for a higher end processor, which the MX does not.


In terms of obsolescence, I think a lot has to do with need over the next few years. As someone who went full bore into 11.x with an 8801 and all D2 speakers, I can honestly say the sound field created by the 151 at 7.x is appreciably better than 9.x or 11.x from the 8801. For me, it was very hit or miss how PLIIz or Neo:X interpolated the additional channels. If new content comes with discrete 9 or 11 channel mixes, that may change things, but I've not read anything that indicates there is a surge in that direction from the industry. Perhaps this is also because the number of installations that can support 9 or 11 channels (not to mention sticking a speaker on ones ceiling), is very small compared to the overall market. A lot still run 5.1 because they cannot fit two additional rear speakers effectively.


4k is also slow coming but certainly more real than >7.x multi-channel audio. Still, I'd much prefer a Lumagen, like the 2041 I use, to manage input switching and adding the benefit of greyscale, gamma, CMS and other image calibration and enhancement tools. So when Lumagen offers their true 4k in/out model, I will upgrade to that with little hesitation, and 4k in my av processor won't be of much benefit, since I will only send audio to the processor and dedicated video feed to the projector (the Lumagens support dual configurable video outs for those not familiar). I'm surmising that many in the realm of these processors and higher end projectors and panels would prefer the benefits on the Lumagen and make their investment there. I've actually felt it would be wise for some of the higher end companies to license Lumagen tech, even as an outboard HDMI box, to solve a lot of the pain in development and support of their av processors


So while McIntosh is certainly working on their next generation processors (I'm guessing a replacement for the MX-121 is also coming, perhaps even first given some of the older technology in that unit), a new MX-161 will not be an automatic upgrade if its largely for more full range channels or 4k passthrough. Next generation Room Perfect, and an enhanced multiple subwoofer topology would be nice, and perhaps an integrated D100-style DAC. Clearly, 4k and more channels will be nearly a given, my only point is classifying the current unit as obsolete is not so clear based on practical needs for one's environment, and many won't be doing more than 7.x is my guess.


In terms of the Datasat, I've had two demos of the product at authorized dealers, and was not impressed at all, especially for the price. I am also somewhat leery of their future stability given their size and installed base. The cost basis of the Datasat, a separate video processor, the audio calibration kit (if you can even buy it, as you're supposed to hire your installer to perform the calibration), and questionable future resale value given their lack of market awareness and penetration make the Datasat a relatviely risky proposition in my eyes, unless one is comfortable losing the gamble.

Good points, wants and needs would have to factor in for each individual. I'm just not a Mac guy so personally wouldn't look to Mac for anything other than an amp but neither would I purchase the Classe SSP-800 or Bryston SP3 for example because of their complete lack of room EQ alone. But of course like outboard video processors one could buy outboard EQ systems to augment their capabilities if they didn't need 9.1, 11.1, etc. I do respect their stance though, the likes of Bryston and Classe as to why they don't include EQ and for Bryston why they only support 7.1 as they chose to only support up to the max of true discerete content and since discrete content caps out at 7.1 right now that's where they stopped.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18030#post_24661252


Interesting...I owned an LS460 with the Levinson sound a few years back and was not impressed at all...


Recently, I test drove a new Jaguar XJ with the Meridian sound system...THAT did sound impressive, though I have no idea how much of that is Meridian tech...

Chances are, none of it is Meridian tech. Maybe the DSP tuning but that's about it. Automotive components are completely different in technology for temperature range as well as lifespan. The automotive electronics manufacturers are niche when it comes to design- there are only 5 OEM suppliers in the audio space. CE technology moves a lot faster than automotive due to validation/certification requirements. You can't just pull over a car and "reboot" if something screws up so the validation time alone is years. To give you an idea on the design time- I did the Class D amps for Acura in 2009 that just came out in the 2014 model year Acura's. That's "new" for 2014 but I finished the design in 2009 and left Panasonic in 2011. It takes that long for them to actually go through the validation steps and also get to production. CE manufacturers don't like that time frame so that's why they stay out of the space. Meridian more than likely only contributed their name after being paid millions in brand licensing and at most they gave the acoustic engineers some technical requirements to meet before approving the branding for the system. Then they'll come out and have a listen prior to production to make sure everything meets their requirements. Also, all car systems are 4 ohm speakers, and I don't think there is a single home audio manufacturer that builds a 4 ohm voice-coil.
 
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