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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18060#post_24666048


There is no proof that manually tuning your response curve will be any better than something like Audyssey XT32 or ARC or Dirac or others in terms of actual sound quality.


And there is certainly no proof that you can take speakers with terrible horizontal off-axis and actually smooth out the horizontal off-axis responses.


I think people who care about getting a flat on-axis and smooth off-axis frequency response shouldn't even buy B&W speakers in the first place.
They should buy Revel, KEF, RBH, etc.


Just because your response curve is flatter does not guarantee that it will sound better subjectively. I assume that is why you said "YMMV".

Yes, exactly why I said YMMV. Everyone has different ears when it comes to what they like. The way I set up my audio systems is to get the curve as flat as possible, and then adjust to what I like from there. But, I'm not going to just run an automated calibration suite and leave it alone after. That's why Bose is in business
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan30306  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18060#post_24666206


Yes, exactly why I said YMMV. Everyone has different ears when it comes to what they like. The way I set up my audio systems is to get the curve as flat as possible, and then adjust to what I like from there. But, I'm not going to just run an automated calibration suite and leave it alone after. That's why Bose is in business

Have you seen the post-Audyssey XT32 curves? I am sure it varies, but I've seen some very impressively smooth XT32 curves.


But again, not everyone likes "flat". They want "better", not flat. But better is different for everyone. Better is subjective.


I want to ask, though. I know EQ can flatten the on-axis. But can your manual EQ flatten out and smooth out the horizontal off-axis curve?



Because in terms of overall sound quality, both the on-axis and the off-axis play a role.
 

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New to B&W I now have Polk cs400,rt1000p,and fx500 as my setup.If I change to B&W CC6 S2 ,B&W DM602 S2,and B&W DM601 S2 all for $450 is that a good price and a upgrade?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by c_nitty  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18060#post_24666273


New to B&W I now have Polk cs400,rt1000p,and fx500 as my setup.If I change to B&W CC6 S2 ,B&W DM602 S2,and B&W DM601 S2 all for $450 is that a good price and a upgrade?

It is a good price and upgrade as long as you think the B&W sound better.


In terms of brand name, B&W is certainly more prestigious than Polk.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18060#post_24666256


Have you seen the post-Audyssey XT32 curves? I am sure it varies, but I've seen some very impressively smooth XT32 curves.


But again, not everyone likes "flat". They want "better", not flat. But better is different for everyone. Better is subjective.


I want to ask, though. I know EQ can flatten the on-axis. But can your manual EQ flatten out and smooth out the horizontal off-axis curve?



Because in terms of overall sound quality, both the on-axis and the off-axis play a role.

Honestly, I have no idea. That EQ is one that I use(d) in my car. I was initially a high end car audio guy. Ever seen B&W drivers in the kick panel of a car?
I'll post pics one day



There are better EQ's than the Alesis. Its just how much money do you want to spend....
 

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Thanks for the info
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18060#post_24666301


It is a good price and upgrade as long as you think the B&W sound better.


In terms of brand name, B&W is certainly more prestigious than Polk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by c_nitty  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18060#post_24666273


New to B&W I now have Polk cs400,rt1000p,and fx500 as my setup.If I change to B&W CC6 S2 ,B&W DM602 S2,and B&W DM601 S2 all for $450 is that a good price and a upgrade?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan30306  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18060#post_24666337


Honestly, I have no idea. That EQ is one that I use(d) in my car. I was initially a high end car audio guy. Ever seen B&W drivers in the kick panel of a car?
I'll post pics one day



There are better EQ's than the Alesis. Its just how much money do you want to spend....

I have no idea what a high-end car audio is. Is that like Lexus, Mercedes, B&W?



Yes, there are different EQ and different Room Correction. I am not sure about "better" because that depends on our subjective preferences.


So far the only EQ I have personally found to be worth anything is the Audyssey Subwoofer EQ and Dynamic EQ. Other than that, I try to avoid all other EQs manual or automated.


Whatever works best for the individual.


It is generally agreed upon that the most significant improvement is usually in the bass region, not above 200Hz. So bypassing any EQ above 200Hz works for me. Just give me EQ for the bass region.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18060#post_24666630


I have no idea what a high-end car audio is. Is that like Lexus, Mercedes, B&W?



Yes, there are different EQ and different Room Correction. I am not sure about "better" because that depends on our subjective preferences.


So far the only EQ I have personally found to be worth anything is the Audyssey Subwoofer EQ and Dynamic EQ. Other than that, I try to avoid all other EQs manual or automated.


Whatever works best for the individual.


It is generally agreed upon that the most significant improvement is usually in the bass region, not above 200Hz. So bypassing any EQ above 200Hz works for me. Just give me EQ for the bass region.

No, in "high end" car audio- the car itself is irrelevant. My car back then was a VW Jetta. It was a brand new car... and I put more into the audio system than the cost of the car. Let's just say my car would give 802D's, Classe amps, etc. in a house a run for their money for sound Q (and it was in my car) .... At one point I was looking to buy just the B&W diamond tweeter and stick them in the dashboard.



You could always buy that 31 band EQ and leave it flat below whatever your crossover is set at for the bass region..... DEQ-230's can be found cheap these days.


BUT... if you want "high end" EQ's, take a look at Manley brand EQ's. Those are about $5K... 44 freq. with about 1/4 octave spacing



You could buy this: http://www.manley.com/msmpx.php#specs


and set only:


LOW - 22, 33, 47, 68, 100, 150, 220, 330, 470, 680, 1K


LM - 82, 120, 180, 270, 390, 560, 820, 1K2, 1K8, 2K7, 3K9


2 channel, so you would need a few at $6K a piece
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan30306  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18060#post_24665988 .............Plus... it absolutely kills me to spend tens of thousands of dollars on hardware when as and engineer what I see is a thousand dollars worth or chips top. I look at a Classe amp and I see $600 in parts.
I can't choke down $10K for one no matter how I try to justify it.
Interesting,

 

So if one takes a CA-M600 price is $7,000 and assume that the dealer pays $3,500

 

The cost is probably $1250 for to make, including the box and all. Of course you have to add to the cost of material, G&A, marketing, rent, equipment, wages and all....

 

So yes I understand where you are coming from. But since I can't make that myself I am willing to buy one at a discounted rate, as close at to what the dealer pays for
 

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When consumers purchase finished products, they never just pay for the cost of parts. They pay for folks like dan30306 to engineer them (engineers don't come cheap, and really good ones are expensive), the cost of equipment to design and build them, labor, and all the supporting parts of the business consumers demand after they purchase a product.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wse  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18090#post_24673070


Interesting,


So if one takes a CA-M600 price is $7,000 and assume that the dealer pays $3,500


The cost is probably $1250 for to make, including the box and all. Of course you have to add to the cost of material, G&A, marketing, rent, equipment, wages and all....


So yes I understand where you are coming from. But since I can't make that myself I am willing to buy one at a discounted rate, as close at to what the dealer pays for
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJMcMahon  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18030#post_24660397


A pair of 683S2's and an HT61S2 were delivered to my home on Friday - I was one very happy camper!


...until Sunday, when I discovered that my 3 1/2 year old LG Plasma had developed a line just right of center.
It's one pixel wide, but of course I can see it perfectly, especially with warm colors (red, orange, etc) where it's black. The "cold" colors (blue, green, white, etc) it turns a light green. Since I'm outside of both the manufacturer and extended warranty, the cost to replace the panel is in the $1500 area....yeah, probably not.



I think I know the answer to this, but I'm gonna ask the resident experts: it was recommended by the dealer that I consider replacing the jumpers between the binding posts on my speakers with spare bits of speaker wire. He went onto explain that "they're all crap...even the ones on the 800 series are crap, we replace them immediately". This led into a discussion on the benefits of Transparent Audio's cables ($200 a pair). This sounds suspiciously like upselling, but I'm sure the folks here have had much more time with your speakers than I have. What say you?


Thx,


Mike

He was just trying to upsell you, Mike.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wse  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18060#post_24673050


If you know what you are doing!  I would love to take classes to learn but I don't have time currently.

Its easier than you think. If you can align a projector, you can do this....
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wse  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18090#post_24673070


Interesting,


So if one takes a CA-M600 price is $7,000 and assume that the dealer pays $3,500


The cost is probably $1250 for to make, including the box and all. Of course you have to add to the cost of material, G&A, marketing, rent, equipment, wages and all....


So yes I understand where you are coming from. But since I can't make that myself I am willing to buy one at a discounted rate, as close at to what the dealer pays for

Actually, the margins aren't that high due to the company having to recoup engineering and development costs. Things like UL, FCC, etc. certifications required to retail consumer products cost a ton of money. UL certification alone can run hundreds of thousands. But, its still only $600.00 in parts.



I did my own design of a Class D amp for my home theater system. Its all high end parts, 600W x 5 RMS, fully balanced, ultra low THD, and a nutty power supply system. The total parts list added up to $920 and that was buying only 1 of everything needed to build one unit. At volume, that's a $500 bill of material. I wanted to build one to play but to manufacture just one amp it was almost $25K in prototyping costs. So... I didn't build it... yet... maybe one day.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Butler  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18090#post_24673492


When consumers purchase finished products, they never just pay for the cost of parts. They pay for folks like dan30306 to engineer them (engineers don't come cheap, and really good ones are expensive), the cost of equipment to design and build them, labor, and all the supporting parts of the business consumers demand after they purchase a product.

A good engineer capable of designing components like this is typically around a $250K a year salary or so. Manufacturing costs are low (except speakers where hand assembly is required) because its all automated equipment. Most of the money involved is R&D and certifications. At the end of the day though- $600.00 in parts.



I looked at a Mark Levinson amp once and calculated the bill of material just to see how much was into it. It was less than $1400 in parts all in but it retailed for something like $30k. I'm not sure what model it was. We had it in our tuning reference room and someone took it apart to change one of the connectors on it.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Butler  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18090#post_24673492


When consumers purchase finished products, they never just pay for the cost of parts. They pay for folks like dan30306 to engineer them (engineers don't come cheap, and really good ones are expensive), the cost of equipment to design and build them, labor, and all the supporting parts of the business consumers demand after they purchase a product.

Wow what are you telling me that a iphone is not $119 and google glass $79 for them to make ?, I am shocked the whole internet seems convinced of this
. Weirdly this talk happens with products that still have physical parts but you almost never see this way of talking about pure labour or digital products. Like you state its almost never the cost of the parts anymore and its amazing how esp. DIY people (who i respect) seem to say they can do it all much cheaper but don't could their hours. Some start companies and most find out the hard way.


Daniel.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18090#post_24675562


Wow what are you telling me that a iphone is not $119 and google glass $79 for them to make ?, I am shocked the whole internet seems convinced of this
. Weirdly this talk happens with products that still have physical parts but you almost never see this way of talking about pure labour or digital products. Like you state its almost never the cost of the parts anymore and its amazing how esp. DIY people (who i respect) seem to say they can do it all much cheaper but don't could their hours. Some start companies and most find out the hard way.


Daniel.

Actually, the iPhone is rather expensive and everyone loses money on it- Apple, the carrier, etc. The way to tell how much the phone really costs the manufacturer is look at the "no contract" price. Then add 10% for most phones and 22% for Apple. Apple loses money on every single phone regardless of how you buy it but once you buy they have you by the throat because you're in their walled garden. The first venue for revenue is of course iTunes content.... but even if you never buy a single app they still have you by the shorts because Apple has this nifty data center in NC where they take in all your data and sell it. If you think Siri is free... think again. Same for maps, and most of the apps that come on that phone which you can't delete. Sure, we'll give you free maps, but while you're using them we'll sell your information to Inrix for traffic data, push coupons, in-app purchase content, and so on.
They still make money so....
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan30306  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18090#post_24675797


Actually, the iPhone is rather expensive and everyone loses money on it- Apple, the carrier, etc. The way to tell how much the phone really costs the manufacturer is look at the "no contract" price. Then add 10% for most phones and 22% for Apple. Apple loses money on every single phone regardless of how you buy it but once you buy they have you by the throat because you're in their walled garden. The first venue for revenue is of course iTunes content.... but even if you never buy a single app they still have you by the shorts because Apple has this nifty data center in NC where they take in all your data and sell it. If you think Siri is free... think again. Same for maps, and most of the apps that come on that phone which you can't delete. Sure, we'll give you free maps, but while you're using them we'll sell your information to Inrix for traffic data, push coupons, in-app purchase content, and so on.
They still make money so....

My friend you are smoking if you think Apple loses money on the hardware. Do you listen/read their quarterly earnings report???
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang  /t/755048/b-w-owners-thread/18090#post_24675918


My friend you are smoking if you think Apple loses money on the hardware. Do you listen/read their quarterly earnings report???

I know for an absolute fact that they are losing money on the iPhone. They pay more in licenses for the latest and greatest technology than they do for parts. Do you really think Apple has their own fab to manufacture silicon chips like that nifty A7? They also have to pay the Qualcomm taxes for the wireless protocols, plus a bunch of other things they have licensed over the years. Per phone (just on the physical hardware) they are losing money. The bill of materials for the phone, then when you add in all the licensing, manufacturing costs, development costs to get a "loaded BOM"... exceeds the retail sales price by 22%.


They still make money on the phone long term, but they lose on the physical phone itself if you never take it out of the box and turn it on. Do you have any idea how much money Apple paid to Foxconn for custom equipment to even be able to manufacture them?
 
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