[Gilles Panizzi]

I have a Pioneer DVR-650H-K standalone hdd/dvd recorder which I have been using to archive VHS movies etc. I now have 350+ titles on the HDD, many with important edits like chapter marks, thumbnail, title and so on. The drive itself appears to be running fine (no clicks) but I want to prepare for the worst - HDD failure. I was thinking about copying titles to rewriteable DVDs (either - {dash} or + {plus}) and then putting them in my computer's drive and ultimately transferring the movies to an external hard drive.


I would like to be able to burn selected titles from the Pioneer onto -RW rewriteable discs, play them on my PC's CD-ROM drive, and ultimately copy the titles to a dedicated external hard drive on my computer. I did a test burn with a few titles in Video mode and finalized the -RW disc. The disc played OK in my CD-ROM drive but the chapter marks that I had created in the titles were not recognized. Is there a way for me to preserve the title(s) on my pc's ext. hdd exactly as they were created on the Pioneer 650 (chapter marks and thumbnail)?


My computer is Win 7 Pro if that helps.

 

[CitiBear]

A lot depends on the software you're using to rip the DVD-RWs and play the resulting PC files. Pioneer 650 finalized DVDs are among the more compatible discs made by DVD recorders: you should have no problem ripping them while preserving chapters and menus/thumbnails. You want to use ripping software that will create a folder of VOB files, or make a playable image of the DVD: either should retain the Pioneer file structure, chapters, and menu. Any decent media player should pull the original menu and thumbnails right up when you drag the ripped HDD files into the player window.

 

[Gilles Panizzi]

I tried making one +RW test disc in VR mode (a mistake, I won't do it again) and my CD-ROM played it but showed all of those VOB etc. files. My test disc had 6 or 7 titles on it and I couldn't tell which was which. Or should I just do 1 title per rewritable disc? Any recommendations on ripping software? Btw, these titles/movies are NOT copyrighted and are solely for my own personal use.

 

[Kelson]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilles Panizzi /forum/post/20768553


I tried making one +RW test disc in VR mode (a mistake, I won't do it again) and my CD-ROM played it but showed all of those VOB etc. files. My test disc had 6 or 7 titles on it and I couldn't tell which was which. Or should I just do 1 title per rewritable disc? Any recommendations on ripping software? Btw, these titles/movies are NOT copyrighted and are solely for my own personal use.

• Burn the disks from the Pioneer in Video mode to make standard DVD's.
• PC playing software varies widely. Put the disk in a stand-alone DVD player and test it for title menu and chapter points etc. If they are not there or the way you want them, that is a function of how the recorder burned them. You'll need to go back to the recorder and vary parameters until you get what you want -- if possible.
• Once you have gotten a disk that plays the way you want, you are ready to do the ripping. Google "ImgBurn" and download the latest version. This is the best free ripper for unprotected disks. You will use it to rip your burned DVD-RW to a DVD.ISO image file which you will store on your HDD.
• For PC playback, Google "VLC Media Player". This is an excellent and free open-source media player that plays DVD.ISO files perfectly (and just about anything else) including full menu and chapter support.
• For playback to your flat-panel TV, purchase a WDTV Live+ ($90 at NewEgg). The WD Live+ supports playback from both an attached USB HDD or via network streaming from a network storage device (PC, server, NAS unit). It plays a DVD.ISO perfectly with the same experience as if you inserted the disk into a stand-alone player. It has composite, component and HDMI connections. For DVD.ISO playback a solid Wireless-G connection works just fine (but N is better).

That's basically everything you need to go from DVD recorder to portable electronic storage. After that it's just a question of what kind and how much hard-disk storage you want.

 

[CitiBear]

Kelson pretty much nailed the specifics for what you want to do (I'm going to bookmark this for future reference when people ask, he's much more concise about these things than anyone else here).


I would only expand on what he said regarding the Pioneer settings: they're probably OK but just make sure of two things: that the HDD is set to record in "Video" mode, and that the default format for DVD-RW is set to "Video" mode. You can check these options in the Home>Setup>Disc Setup menus. If the HDD is set to record in "VR Mode", some recordings may not copy correctly to DVD (most will, but a small percentage won't: the HDD VR mode is kind of pointless because it does nothing but permit non-standard encoding schemes). The HDD mode sticks after you set it: once switched to Video mode it will stay there.


The DVD-RW format selection normally defaults to the Video Mode, which is what you want, be sure that is the current setting. (VR Mode +R, -R and -RW discs are only compatible with Pioneer recorders and players, they allow proprietary backup of Pio HDD files which can be restored intact by high-speed copy to any Pioneer recorder). DVD+RW uses a different more standard version of VR as default: most modern gear is compatible with it for playback but ripping can be tricky sometimes. Stick with -RW, and don't forget to finalize: this embeds the chapter marks, thumbnails and menu so that they rip correctly along with the video. If you've always used +RW until now, you probably got out of the habit of finalizing because +RW doesn't need it, but -RW does if used for ripping to PC storage.

 

[Gilles Panizzi]



Quote:
Originally Posted by CitiBear /forum/post/20769575


The DVD-RW format selection normally defaults to the Video Mode, which is what you want, be sure that is the current setting. (VR Mode +R, -R and -RW discs are only compatible with Pioneer recorders and players, they allow proprietary backup of Pio HDD files which can be restored intact by high-speed copy to any Pioneer recorder). DVD+RW uses a different more standard version of VR as default: most modern gear is compatible with it for playback but ripping can be tricky sometimes. Stick with -RW, and don't forget to finalize: this embeds the chapter marks, thumbnails and menu so that they rip correctly along with the video. If you've always used +RW until now, you probably got out of the habit of finalizing because +RW doesn't need it, but -RW does if used for ripping to PC storage.

Thanks for the great info re +RW vs. -RW. I only recently bought a 10 pack of Verbatim +RW discs so I will give that a try first. I have always finalzed my discs but I haven't done a lot of burning from the Pio's HDD - usually its the other direction. Thanks also to Kelson - I already have ImgBurn & VLC Media Player installed so I'm going to make some 1st attempts today.

Update: When I loaded a blank +RW disc the Pio kinda balked and said "Please load a recordable disc." I just waited 10 seconds or so for that message to go away and I thought that I would be fine so I burned 1 short title to it but it did not finalize, didn't even give me the option whereas -R/RW always does. The disc played fine on a Samsung standalone player and the chapter marks were preserved but there is no disc menu at all. Lesson learned, I suppose.

 

[CitiBear]

Yes, a +RW burned by a typical recorder operates unexpectedly sometimes on other gear. The actual video is designed to be cross-compatible, but there really isn't a standardized menu. You will get one, including thumbnails, if you play the disc on a Pioneer recorder or player, but that is only because Pioneer designed its hardware to "present" the disc navigation that way. Other hardware or software will play the disc but may or may not have cruder navigation or "pseudo-menu" functions.


+RW is fine for moving basic recordings to a PC for advanced users who intend to further tweak the video files, making the the final version on the PC using PC tools. But if you primarily do all your editing and menu creation on your DVD/HDD recorder, and just want to copy the finished discs as "virtual discs" to your PC hard drive, you'll want to use DVD-RW and finalize it. This will present the PC with a "standard" DVD it will recognize and rip/play off the HDD as if it were a disc in the optical drive.


If you don't do this a lot, consider buying the cheaper and more archival -R discs instead. Since you have to finalize them anyway, using -R will automatically provide you with a "physical" permanent backup copy you can return to should anything go wrong with your HDD library. Erasing and re-using -RW takes time, the discs are not archival quality, and if you think the videos are important enough to transfer to a PC hard drive library they're probably important enough to be worth saving on actual DVDs as well. You can get a 100-pak of high grade JVC/Taiyo Yuden or Verbatim DataLifePlus media from online dealers like supermediastore for about $28 delivered. Buy the 8x silver top -R versions, they're the most recommended on this and other forums for recorder use (avoid the 16x).

 

[Gilles Panizzi]



Quote:
Originally Posted by CitiBear /forum/post/20774892


If you don't do this a lot, consider buying the cheaper and more archival -R discs instead. Since you have to finalize them anyway, using -R will automatically provide you with a "physical" permanent backup copy you can return to should anything go wrong with your HDD library. Erasing and re-using -RW takes time, the discs are not archival quality, and if you think the videos are important enough to transfer to a PC hard drive library they're probably important enough to be worth saving on actual DVDs as well. You can get a 100-pak of high grade JVC/Taiyo Yuden or Verbatim DataLifePlus media from online dealers like supermediastore for about $28 delivered. Buy the 8x silver top -R versions, they're the most recommended on this and other forums for recorder use (avoid the 16x).

I've been thinking about the investment in time with -RW discs vs. just going with -R Dual Layer but DL discs are pricey. Thanks much for the good read.

 

[7558037]

My Pio 640 manual says this about +RW discs:


"DVD+RW discs don't generally need

finalizing. However, if you want a title menu

to appear when you play the disc, then you

will need to finalize. When using a

DVD+RW, you can still record and edit even

after finalizing. although the title menu will

disappear if you do so. Finalize the disc

again to generate a new title menu."


So, you might need to Finalize using the Disc Edit menu in a separate op?


With my Philips and Mag DVDRs, I have to turn on Make Edits Compatible for the menu or any edits, like Scene Delete and Chapters, to show up in other players.

 

[jjeff]



Quote:
Originally Posted by wajo /forum/post/20775010


However, if you want a title menu

to appear when you play the disc, then you

will need to finalize.

Panasonics act similar but they use the term "create top menu" instead of finalize, which I think is more the proper term since +RW users will insist +RW discs do NOT need to be finalized

 

[Gilles Panizzi]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson /forum/post/20769418

• Once you have gotten a disk that plays the way you want, you are ready to do the ripping. Google "ImgBurn" and download the latest version. This is the best free ripper for unprotected disks. You will use it to rip your burned DVD-RW to a DVD.ISO image file which you will store on your HDD.
  
• For PC playback, Google "VLC Media Player". This is an excellent and free open-source media player that plays DVD.ISO files perfectly (and just about anything else) including full menu and chapter support.

I have created a DVD.ISO image file with ImgBurn of one title recorded on a -RW disc (played perfectly with chapters, thumbnail, title intact on my OPPO 981 standalone). How do I get VLC Media Player to play this file? Is there a setting or configuration for VLC MP? My VLC is version 1.1.11.

 

[Kelson]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilles Panizzi /forum/post/20775151


I have created a DVD.ISO image file with ImgBurn of one title recorded on a -RW disc (played perfectly with chapters, thumbnail, title intact on my OPPO 981 standalone). How do I get VLC Media Player to play this file? Is there a setting or configuration for VLC MP? My VLC is version 1.1.11.

If VLC has been installed properly with the default file associations, you should be able to simply double-click on the DVD.iso file to cause it to play. If the file association is not established then another way is to right-click on the DVD.iso file and select "Play with VLC player". If all else fails, just launch VLC and select the menu item "Media/Open File..." then navigate to your DVD.iso.


Use the F1 key to bring up the help screen with links to the VLC help files.

 

[Kelson]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilles Panizzi /forum/post/20775004


I've been thinking about the investment in time with -RW discs vs. just going with -R Dual Layer but DL discs are pricey. Thanks much for the good read.

Just to throw another iron into a fire: If you will primarily play the DVD.iso files from a HDD and only want to use optical media to backup the video -- there is always BD-R.


BD-R blanks are running ~$1 each. I can use ImgBurn to put 5 DVD.iso files on a single BD-R (that would be 4.3GB single layer DVD's). You can't play these disks anywhere (except on a PC using VLC), but they serve the purpose of being able to cheaply back up titles that will be played from HDD storage. It's rare that I play anything from disk any more. My Oppo 981 is largely collecting dust.

 

[jjeff]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson /forum/post/20775661


.....You can't play these disks anywhere (except on a PC using VLC)....

Wouldn't they also play on a standalone BD player? and just point out the obvious, to burn this way you would need a BD burner in your PC, not just a standard CD/DVD burner.

 

[Gilles Panizzi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelson BD-R blanks are running ~$1 each. I can use ImgBurn to put 5 DVD.iso files on a single BD-R (that would be 4.3GB single layer DVD's). You can't play these disks anywhere (except on a PC using VLC), but they serve the purpose of being able to cheaply back up titles that will be played from HDD storage.

Good point you have there concerning Blu-ray. I would need a BD-R burner and I have a Samsung player which I can't stand (super long lag time from remote key command to anything actually changing on screen...like 2 or 3 seconds). So what I'm doing now is using what I have left of Verbatim +R dual layer discs to make archival copies of my titles. I have about 25 discs so that should get the ball rollling.


What is a good but inexpensive pc BD-R burner? I just built my system and have a Sony 7240 (I think that's the model #) burner which is great. Or I may just bite the bullet and get a 100 spindle of TY or Verbatim online. There's also my local Costco which has a 100 spindle of Sony -R for around $20-25 (if Sony media is any good).

 

[Kelson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjeff Wouldn't they also play on a standalone BD player?

No. The disks are burned as data disks not BD-Video (BDMV). They contain 5 data files that happen to be DVD.iso files. I can put the disk in my PC and copy the DVD.iso files to my NAS for streaming playback with my media player. Alternatively I can just use VLC to open and play any of the files on the disk on my PC.


And yes, it goes without saying that a BD burner is needed to burn BD-R.

 

[Kelson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilles Panizzi What is a good but inexpensive pc BD-R burner?

Good and inexpensive = LG WH12LS30. Currently $80 at NewEgg. That's about as cheap as it has gotten. I have the previous model WH10LS30 and it has been completely reliable. I've burned about 30 BD-R so far.

 

[Church AV Guy]

How long do you think before we have an idea of how reliable the BD-R disks will be? Many cheaper DVDs don't last all that long before the errors start to pile up. Won't BR disks have the same problem?

 

[Kelson]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Church AV Guy /forum/post/20779231


How long do you think before we have an idea of how reliable the BD-R disks will be? Many cheaper DVDs don't last all that long before the errors start to pile up. Won't BR disks have the same problem?

Good question. The big difference between BD-R and DVD-R is that BD-R uses a solid state recording layer, not a dye. It's supposed to be more stable. BD-R LTH was supposed to be the cheap version that uses a dye and can be made on DVD-R process lines. Only thing was that once the format war ended they really ramped up the production of BD-R so that LTH is now more expensive than most standard BD-R. I've been using Philips BD-R for $1 each.


Only time will tell as far as disk longevity, so I'll let you know in a couple years.

 

[Church AV Guy]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson /forum/post/20780212


Good question. The big difference between BD-R and DVD-R is that BD-R uses a solid state recording layer, not a dye. It's supposed to be more stable. BD-R LTH was supposed to be the cheap version that uses a dye and can be made on DVD-R process lines. Only thing was that once the format war ended they really ramped up the production of BD-R so that LTH is now more expensive than most standard BD-R. I've been using Philips BD-R for $1 each.


Only time will tell as far as disk longevity, so I'll let you know in a couple years.

I won't bother holding my breath...