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Discussion Starter #1
:mad: I called Boxlight today to see if they'd received my 2HD yet and the tech told me that, indeed they had and they tested it and the VB is within spec! I almost fell out of my chair. :eek: I asked him if they had tested it with a gray picture and he said yes. I told him that on normal content the VB was not so visible but on scenes like the opening of Pirates of The Caribbean, the fog showed the VB in it's full glory.


He said they would put it back on the bench and take another look. :cool: I just can't for the life of me believe that the amount of VB I have is normal. If this is what LCD is supposed to look like, I'm going back to DLP, rainbows and all. :confused:
 

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Obviously its not what LCD is "supposed" to look like but it appears some are luckier than others when it comes to VB. I hope they decide to do something about it after taking a second look :)
 

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Did you try the service mode changes? They probably also don't have a new unit to give you. Maybe ask them to trade up to the new SE30HD.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
The service mode changes had no effect on my machine and they do not have any spares for trade, a dumb decision if you ask me. When I picked up my machine, I had my choice of 7 units sitting in a pile and wouldn't you know it, I got the P.O.S. out of the batch.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I just received an email from Tech Support:


Hello Darrell,


I talked to the technician that worked on your projector and he did test it with a plain grey screen and while he did see some streaking in the image, it was well within specification for the projector and cannot be repaired. This problem can be minimized by using a true 16x9 format input signal that doesn't force the projector to resize the image to fit on the 16x9 panels within the projector, but it will always be visible to some extent. This issue is inherent to LCD projectors in general. If it is unacceptable, you may want to consider a DLP projector, as they are not susceptible to this issue.



Bummer!


Is there a difference between Component & DVI that may cause this? I don't currently have a DVI machine to run into it, everything uses Component.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Marissadad

I just received an email from Tech Support:

This problem can be minimized by using a true 16x9 format input signal that doesn't force the projector to resize the image to fit on the 16x9 panels within the projector, but it will always be visible to some extent. This issue is inherent to LCD projectors in general. If it is unacceptable, you may want to consider a DLP projector, as they are not susceptible to this issue.

/B]

That reasoning sounds a bit lame to me - maybe he means the lines are more noticeable on stretched images since those scenes/areas where the VB is most noticeable are enlarged. I'd be asking how they assess the specification...
 

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Marissadad,

Sorry to hear about your projector. I dont see any verticle banding on mine, although it could be a case of ignorance is bliss. Not sure if youve looked into it but how good is your power source? I have read on here that power can affect things like black level, not sure if it could affect banding. I made sure when they built my house to have isolated circuits for the rack, projector, sub and computer and make sure it was all on the same phase. Well my audio system sounds awesome, no probs there. I did notice that in my temporary setup I have the projector plugged into the future computer outlet, and on a black screen I can notice a thin wave move from the bottom up the screen. It is only noticable on a black screen. I think the rack where the dvd player is and the outlet for the computer are not on the same phase. Have to call back the electrician to fix it (they hosed up a few other things too no matter how much I tried to keep a eye on them.

-Pete
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I've been borrowing a DLP projector from work and the image is rock-solid.


I just ordered a VGA-DVI conversion cable from Pacific Cable, I'll see if that makes a difference.


Has anyone tried using a device that has both Component & DVI to see if DVI reduced the VB?
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Marissadad
When I picked up my machine, I had my choice of 7 units sitting in a pile and wouldn't you know it, I got the P.O.S. out of the batch.
Or maybe you got the best one of the 7. :)


I can't believe that they can't figure out a way to minimize this in the long run. I've said this before, but if they go to 1920x1080 and still have as much VB as some of the current units they still won't have realistic looking images to me. I'm under the impression that the HS20s are a little better in the VB department from what I've seen and read, but that isn't a big enough sample to say for sure. I hope that these companies are assigning engineers to the VB issue, as I am pretty sure it could be reduced with either some engineering to the physical panels or to the controls (that is where I think some effort would pay off).


From my experience DLPs tend to show more mosquito noise than LCDs, LCDs tend to have more VB, and D-ILA (LCOS) projectors may have some VB but it can be corrected for the most part with Dilard for the older D-ILAs and the newer ones (like the SX21) don't seem to come from the factory with any big VB issues. The 8 bars test in Dilard was great for getting rid of VB and I hope the LCD manufacturers either fix the problem physically or provide some controls for the different voltages so that these projectors can be tweaked for smooth images.


--Darin
 

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On the ae500 anyway, in most cases, dvi solves the VB issue.


Hope it will be this way for your 2HD also.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by darinp2
From my experience DLPs tend to show more mosquito noise than LCDs, LCDs tend to have more VB,
I agree 100% with that. I stopped at my local HT store today to try to give DLP a 2nd chance (BECAUSE YOU DARN PEOPLE MADE ME START LOOKING AT THE VB AND NOW I CAN'T STOP!). They were showing ATOC on a 92" Firehawk with an Infocus 5700. I didn't see rainbows this time like I had before, but I did see tons of mosquito noise. And my eyes began to hurt within a minute or so. There's something my eyes/brain just can't tolerate DLP.


So I guess I'm stuck with the VB and LCD. I have to think that all the talk of different inputs, power cords, etc...sounds like hocus pocus to me. But I could be wrong and I hope I am.
 

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I have not tried my 2HD with component yet, but VB is negligible with both DVI-D and VGA inputs. I can see some in very bright fields if I really try, and that's only because I know what I am looking for. If I am not trying to see it, there is no way I would notice it normally. I tried to show it to my cousin the other day, and had to actually turn Factory register 14 up to 4 to illustrate what it is. I turn the register back down to 2 (original setting) and it pretty much disappears.


I wish I could see your 2HD to compare.


RG
 

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I believe I have seen what you call "Mosquito" noise as well on a Sharp DLP 9000. It was very annoying to me. What I saw looked like a shimmering of the clouds in eposide one of Star Wars.


First was this due to a bad setup? Could it have been eliminated with an HTPC?


Also since we call these things different things it would be alwsum if some one could create clips of the motion artifacts and make a reference libary for the forum. I'm not that level of an video expert to be trying that myself or I would. But it would be nice.


Chuck
 

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I wonder if the mosquito noise is just a factor of low bit rates on DVD's and the lower resolution and compression on DVD's in general. I wonder if the misquito noise is there on HD? I don't have HD to compare to so maybe somebody else can pipe in. I don't think that an HTPC would help much resolving misquito noise IMHO.


Does the Z1 have as many problems with VB as the Z2 commentaries imply? Or is it just the fact that Z2 owners have paid more and therefore expect more? Just Curious....
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by edwardr132
Does the Z1 have as many problems with VB as the Z2 commentaries imply? Or is it just the fact that Z2 owners have paid more and therefore expect more? Just Curious....
I've wondered the same thing about the Z2 and the Panny 500. I think their predecessors were such a huge price/performace breakthrough that we didn't really fuss too much about the VB. But now we're a little spoiled. I would doubt that the VB is any worse on the new ones unless as someone theorized more pixels equals more bands.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Mine has degraded significantly over the first 100 hours. Out of the box I saw thin vertical lines and I could live with that, but now I see these ugly bands, not stripes anymore and it is extremely annoying. I get my 2HD back from Boxlight today and they say it's within specs. If my unit is within specs, that is not saying much for the LCD industry.
 

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So what you are saying is that DVD content has nothing to do with the vertical lines. You see the same lines no matter what content you are watching? How far apart are the vertical lines?
 

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I have the Z2 - at first bad vb-bought a power filter ant saw improvement- noticed grounding light on power filter flickered-tightened all ground connections in house wiring and VB gone or reduced to the point where I've only seen it once "in the fog at the beginning of FOTR". I have a Bravo D1 and an inexpensive Samsung VCR/DVD. D1 720p & 1080i through DVI great. 480p through DVI horrendous VB. Samsung 480i composite TV/VCR/DVD no VB, 480p component no VB. If my computer is on upstairs VB on TV. My factory menu #14 is set to 2. I've had several friends over and none have mentioned anything other than WOW great picture. 96" (8') diagonal MM/CRMA DIY SuperPlex screen. I believe that clean power and well shielded cables make a lot of difference. All my cable runs are 6' and I found that not routing the video cables through my AV system improved the image. My wood shop is 40' away and still some of the motors effect the image from DVD's. I still can't understand why 480p from the D1 looks so bad.
 

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Pixlar thanks for your notes. My VB is minimal but I will play around with power, cable and input type just to see if I can make it all go away. Hey I need to burn more hours tinkering with the HT, right?


I have everything running to the same power, all the cables spaghetti'd, 15' DVI cable (which I think I can get down to 10'), so I have scenario's to try...
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by chuckvb
First was this due to a bad setup? Could it have been eliminated with an HTPC?
Actually, I think the biggest improvement to how much mosquito noise is visible on DLPs has come from these DVI DVD players (Bravo D1 and Momitsu V880 for instance). I personally use a V880 partially because I see less mosquito noise than I did with TheaterTek from my PC on an HT1000 and Sharp 10k. The 9k doesn't have a DVI input, though. Also, the one exception I found to this mosquito noise thing was the Sharp M20x (business projector) which actually showed tons of mosquito noise with the D1. Also, the white segments on the business DLPs tend to show more noise than HT models in my experience. Blacking out the white segment on my M20x reduced the image noise quite a bit. This is one reason I find it interesting when people compare HT DLPs to business DLPs and say that the business DLP is obviously a better deal because you get more pixels without addressing this image noise issue at all.


After using different DLPs with the V880 and different LCDs I now think the gap may have closed to almost nothing here when DVI is used on the HT DLPs, but I haven't actually done sequential tests with the same material. I haven't found the DVI to show the same improvement on LCDs, which is probably somewhat due to them tending to show less of this noise anyway.


With MPEG2 there is going to be a certain amount of noise. It should be lower on HD in general and seems to be much lower on video sources than film based sources (with film grain), but short of getting a Teranex processor ($40k) to reduce it we need to look at other things and how the projector choice can effect them for those who see this noise.


I also think that LCOS projectors tend to minimize this noise. My understanding here is that they actually can't keep up at the same speed as DLP mirrors and so they smooth some of the MPEG2 artifacts out.


I didn't find any noticable improvement to the VB on my AE500 with DVI. However, I have a 116" wide High Power with about 1.4x viewing ratio and people who came to one of my shootouts agreed that the artifacts are more visible on that screen. One person who had a Z2 hadn't seen much VB at his house, but pretty much everybody saw it on my screen.


--Darin
 
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