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Hot damn! A man works a long day and comes back to find ........what's this? A real, big boy BEQ thread on AVS already 20 posts deep!!:):):cool:

Very nice work gentleman! I commend your work and look so forward to contributing to the fun.

Big shouts out to @aron7awol for posting in Mr.Grey's Movies with Bass thread to begin with and causing me to finally explore BEQ about a month back. I haven't watch a single full movie without BEQ since.:eek: Thanks brother Aron! HT will never be the same for me.:D:D:cool:
 

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@aron7awol, am I missing out that much by using the non HD minidsp? That is currently what I have. I have not tried these yet, because I use the AMDC 2.0, but should get some time in this weekend to work on this new challenge to enhance my listening adventure! subscribed!
 

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Discussion Starter #23 (Edited)
@aron7awol, am I missing out that much by using the non HD minidsp? That is currently what I have. I have not tried these yet, because I use the AMDC 2.0, but should get some time in this weekend to work on this new challenge to enhance my listening adventure! subscribed!
Just for Sub adjustments and BEQ,
the non-HD 2x4 should work fine if you already have it.
...if not try it and decide for yourself if you want to upgrade.

My original miniDSP 2x4 (non HD model)
No 12v power transformer, lower voltage 0.9v in-out RCA signal,
5 band EQ, no optical input, no USB audio, no IR receiver for remote control.


New miniDSP 2x4HD includes:
12v power supply, higher voltage 2.0v input/output RCA signal, 10 Band EQ, Digi-Optical (Toslink) input, IR Receiver for remote control,
USB streaming, Faster processing but that's probably more important for higher frequency DSP function (Full Range speakers).
*Greater time delay range to 80ms vs 7.2ms(non HD) for multi sub setup in a large room, See IMDave's quote below.

Plus whatever advantages are in the HD1 software plug-in.

(but to be fair, I have yet to use either for BEQ)




*
Whilst I have the non-HD MiniDSP, in hindsight with a little more knowledge, I probably should have bought the HD version.
Along with the increased voltage ( 2.0V to 4.0V in the HD ) the other very major advantage of the HD over the non-HD is the available output delay.
The non-HD caps out at 7.2ms which equates to 2.479m, whereas the HD provides up to 80ms!!!!
When it comes to time aligning two or more Subs this allows a massive amount of flexibilty in Sub placement. Especially if you have a big room.
REW shows that, whilst I could get close, my two Subs are too far apart to get perfect alignment within the 7.2ms max delay cut off.:(
:)
 

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Discussion Starter #24
Hot damn! A man works a long day and comes back to find ........what's this? A real, big boy BEQ thread on AVS already 20 posts deep!!:):):cool:

Very nice work gentleman! I commend your work and look so forward to contributing to the fun.

Big shouts out to @aron7awol for posting in Mr.Grey's Movies with Bass thread to begin with and causing me to finally explore BEQ about a month back. I haven't watch a single full movie without BEQ since.:eek: Thanks brother Aron! HT will never be the same for me.:D:D:cool:
Yes, Huge Props' to Aron!

Eventually I will make a library/list of BEQ'd titles with links to the charts in one of the reserved spots. (similar to Data Bass)
I really need to get some more programs installed on my laptop and get up to speed on creating my own frequency graphs too.
... but that may have to wait for Winter hibernation.

Great start guys!

I'm open to any suggestions to update/edit the first few posts to make things more user friendly,

:smile:
 

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@aron7awol I believe miniDSP is one of the only vendors who allow filter center frequencies below 20Hz (after popular demand).

Are there any options those with other PEQs limited to 20Hz? Behringer, AllDSP, and many others.
 

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I believe with the Behringers you can use a highshelf filter with a negative gain, to bring the knee down below 20Hz, whereas with the low shelfs the knee starts higher up.
@aron7awol I believe miniDSP is one of the only vendors who allow filter center frequencies below 20Hz (after popular demand).

Are there any options those with other PEQs limited to 20Hz? Behringer, AllDSP, and many others.
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
 

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@aron7awol, am I missing out that much by using the non HD minidsp? That is currently what I have. I have not tried these yet, because I use the AMDC 2.0, but should get some time in this weekend to work on this new challenge to enhance my listening adventure! subscribed!
The 2x4 Balanced should be just about as effective as the HD as far as the ability to output 2V and create filters down to 10Hz. I believe you have to use the SUB_EQ filters to effectively use filters that low on the non-HD.

Yes, Huge Props' to Aron!

Eventually I will make a library/list of BEQ'd titles with links to the charts in one of the reserved spots. (similar to Data Bass)
I really need to get some more programs installed on my laptop and get up to speed on creating my own frequency graphs too.
... but that may have to wait for Winter hibernation.

Great start guys!

I'm open to any suggestions to update/edit the first few posts to make things more user friendly,

:smile:
I was hoping you'd use one of those first posts to create a list with links. I'll be happy to continue to post my BEQs and resulting graphs, and it would be great to have a central location to index them. I do realize that will require a good amount of work and maintenance, though. I wondered if something like a shared Google Doc could be an effective index that could be more of a collaborative effort.

@aron7awol I believe miniDSP is one of the only vendors who allow filter center frequencies below 20Hz (after popular demand).

Are there any options those with other PEQs limited to 20Hz? Behringer, AllDSP, and many others.
I believe with the Behringers you can use a highshelf filter with a negative gain, to bring the knee down below 20Hz, whereas with the low shelfs the knee starts higher up.
As @Pradeep2 mentions, I do know the knee of high shelves are different in the iNuke DSP, and so they can be effective below 20Hz to some extent. It will definitely be a compromise compared to true 10Hz EQ ability, and you may not be able to properly BEQ a lot of films.
 

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I'm THIS close to picking up a minidsp hd and trying out BEQ.

One question... if I were to use aron7awol's settings for some of these movies... how does it work with people that already run their subs pretty hot? Is it better to set your sub back to what Audyssey sets it at before running these corrections or do we run them on top of whatever we normally listen at? I'm just worried it would be too much since I already run my sub +12db (or more) hot.
 

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I'm THIS close to picking up a minidsp hd and trying out BEQ.

One question... if I were to use aron7awol's settings for some of these movies... how does it work with people that already run their subs pretty hot? Is it better to set your sub back to what Audyssey sets it at before running these corrections or do we run them on top of whatever we normally listen at? I'm just worried it would be too much since I already run my sub +12db (or more) hot.
I run my subs hot and run a house curve. It really comes down to this...when you play the full-bandwidth epics such as The Incredible Hulk, War of the Worlds, The Hurricane Heist, do you have to turn down your subs or do any other adjustments? The intention of BEQ is to turn the weak pathetic mixes of the world into something very similar to full-bandwidth mixes. The end result shouldn't be much different from those movies I listed, assuming the BEQ is done properly.
 

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Discussion Starter #30 (Edited)
The 2x4 Balanced should be just about as effective as the HD as far as the ability to output 2V and create filters down to 10Hz. I believe you have to use the SUB_EQ filters to effectively use filters that low on the non-HD.
Aron,

Pretty sure lizrussspike has the first one, non HD 2x4...not the Balanced 2x4
 

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Just for Sub adjustments and BEQ,
the non-HD 2x4 should work fine if you already have it.
...if not try it and decide for yourself if you want to upgrade.

My original miniDSP 2x4 (non HD model)
No 12v power transformer, lower voltage 0.9v in-out RCA signal,
5 band EQ, no optical input, no USB audio, no IR receiver for remote control.

New miniDSP 2x4HD includes:
12v power supply, higher voltage 2.0v input/output RCA signal, 10 Band EQ, Digi-Optical (Toslink) input, IR Receiver for remote control,
USB streaming, Faster processing but that's probably more important for higher frequency DSP function (Full Range speakers).

Plus whatever advantages are in the HD1 software plug-in.

(but to be fair, I have yet to use either for BEQ)




:)
Whilst I have the non-HD MiniDSP, in hindsight with a little more knowledge, I probably should have bought the HD version.
Along with the increased voltage ( 2.0V to 4.0V in the HD ) the other very major advantage of the HD over the non-HD is the available output delay.
The non-HD caps out at 7.2ms which equates to 2.479m, whereas the HD provides up to 80ms!!!!
When it comes to time aligning two or more Subs this allows a massive amount of flexibilty in Sub placement. Especially if you have a big room.
REW shows that, whilst I could get close, my two Subs are too far apart to get perfect alignment within the 7.2ms max delay cut off.:(
 

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Discussion Starter #32 (Edited)
Whilst I have the non-HD MiniDSP, in hindsight with a little more knowledge, I probably should have bought the HD version.
Along with the increased voltage ( 2.0V to 4.0V in the HD ) the other very major advantage of the HD over the non-HD is the available output delay.
The non-HD caps out at 7.2ms which equates to 2.479m, whereas the HD provides up to 80ms!!!!
When it comes to time aligning two or more Subs this allows a massive amount of flexibilty in Sub placement. Especially if you have a big room.
REW shows that, whilst I could get close, my two Subs are too far apart to get perfect alignment within the 7.2ms max delay cut off.:(

Great Point! added to previous post.

...an issue I never had because my subs were all within 2.0m of MLP, but that may be a deal breaker for some.

Thanks Dave!
 

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In sort of a follow up to Ruppgu's question for BEQ for noob's, do you need a certain amount of subwooferage to both take advantage of and not overwork your subs? For instance, would you do more harm than good trying this with a single 10" sub in a large room? I have a V1500 and an XV15SE in my living room (17x13x8) and open to a small dining room.
 

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Something to be aware is that boosting at low frequencies will require more power then boosting at say 80hz.
Doing so will potentially rob you of mid bass spl unless you have headroom. If you are already on the brink of clipping then you need more cones.

Boosting at 14hz with a sub ported at 18hz isnt going to help unless chuffing is the goal, you will need to tailor to your own setup, ie raise the beq from 14 to 20. Would still make for improvements on some films.

This isnt doable for the guy with a 10" sub. Personally I wouldnt buy a mini and attempt without at least 2 well powered subs. Would be easy enough to bottom out a driver if you dont know your subs capability's.

Even if you arent ready for BEQ, the minidsp will do wonders on dialing in a sub until you have he firepower to do it. Ill put it this way, if the minidsp didnt improve things for you, you are doing it wrong.
 

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Something to be aware is that boosting at low frequencies will require more power then boosting at say 80hz.
Doing so will potentially rob you of mid bass spl unless you have headroom. If you are already on the brink of clipping then you need more cones.

Boosting at 14hz with a sub ported at 18hz isnt going to help unless chuffing is the goal, you will need to tailor to your own setup, ie raise the beq from 14 to 20. Would still make for improvements on some films.

This isnt doable for the guy with a 10" sub. Personally I wouldnt buy a mini and attempt without at least 2 well powered subs. Would be easy enough to bottom out a driver if you dont know your subs capability's.

Even if you arent ready for BEQ, the minidsp will do wonders on dialing in a sub until you have he firepower to do it. Ill put it this way, if the minidsp didnt improve things for you, you are doing it wrong.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but just want to clarify for others that anyone, before they even think about attempting BEQ, should at least have their subs properly set up so that they can play War of the Worlds at the loudest level they ever listen at without killing their subs. As long as that requirement is met, there really shouldn't be any major risk doing BEQ, even for a guy with an 18Hz tuned sub. After all, that sub should have a proper HPF on it, so the BEQ mix doesn't have any more of a chance of killing the sub than WotW does. Of course, someone with response lower than 18Hz can gain more from BEQ, but there are plenty (probably even the majority) of mixes that are rolling off significantly higher than 18Hz, so that person can still take advantage of BEQ and get the most out of their particular setup with a particular mix.

Edit to add: For this reason, the same BEQ I use should be able to be used as-is by someone with higher tuned subs. If the HPF doesn't protect them, they have bigger problems and simply aren't set up properly for full-bandwidth movies either.
 

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Thanks, watching this now with low shelf at 24Hz with 5dB×7 for 35dB but no HPF.

Edit to add: just no real ULF to be found in the first which makes sense for a movie this old.
Predator (1987) BEQ

LS 24Hz Q0.9 5dB x 6 (30dB total)
HPF 18Hz 48dB/oct

I combined a big low shelf and a steep HPF in order to get a steep enough boost from 20-35Hz while dropping off quickly below that to avoid boosting noise. This seems like the best compromise for this film, where it should add that nice tactile feedback at the upper fringes of ULF.


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BassEQ The Greatest Showman (2017) Atmos


 

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Something to be aware is that boosting at low frequencies will require more power then boosting at say 80hz.
Doing so will potentially rob you of mid bass spl unless you have headroom. If you are already on the brink of clipping then you need more cones.

Boosting at 14hz with a sub ported at 18hz isnt going to help unless chuffing is the goal, you will need to tailor to your own setup, ie raise the beq from 14 to 20. Would still make for improvements on some films.

This isnt doable for the guy with a 10" sub. Personally I wouldnt buy a mini and attempt without at least 2 well powered subs. Would be easy enough to bottom out a driver if you dont know your subs capability's.

Even if you arent ready for BEQ, the minidsp will do wonders on dialing in a sub until you have he firepower to do it. Ill put it this way, if the minidsp didnt improve things for you, you are doing it wrong.
Hmmmm this gives me a little pause because I only have a 1 sub set up but it's a really nice sub (PSA V1811). I figured I would be able to handle doing some BEQ... I don't want to throw $200 away though. I understand that thought that someone with a very little sub won't be able to handle it.
 

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Hmmmm this gives me a little pause because I only have a 1 sub set up but it's a really nice sub (PSA V1811). I figured I would be able to handle doing some BEQ... I don't want to throw $200 away though. I understand that thought that someone with a very little sub won't be able to handle it.
Your sub can definitely handle it and get a good amount of benefit from it. Please read my post a few posts up.
 

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The BEQ FAQ

1. Is BEQ dangerous?

I totally understand the fear of asking a sub to do too much and blowing it up. I also understand people thinking, "OMGZ, 20-30dB boost down into the teens and single digits! My sub is now a smoke machine!" Those boosts do look really scary, without the proper context.

I think the important thing is not to look at it like we're boosting our subs by 20-30dB. We're really not. We're boosting super-low level content within the mix by 20-30dB to bring it back up to normal levels that exist in content that is readily available and played on those same subs every day without batting an eye. That goes for huge subs, tiny subs, ported subs, sealed subs, subs of all shapes and sizes. Even the guy with the 10" sub should be able to BEQ without any fear of breaking his sub. Granted, he won't get much benefit if his sub only digs down to 25Hz, and that might be a reason for him not to bother with BEQ, but danger should not be.

Now, all that being said, if you do something ignorant/stupid/forgetful and leave the shelves enabled and play War of the Worlds, that's another story. But that's not any more irresponsible than running your 10" sub 20dB hot with a house curve and no HPF. Any full-bandwidth content will be doing the same kind of damage at that point. So for the newbies, tread carefully, study up, read the FAQ, make sure you know what you're doing, and then there's nothing to be afraid of. Jump in with two feet. The water's warm. Actually, it's blistering hot, because if you're reading this thread, that's how you like your bass!

2. Why do you use multiple small filters instead of one big one?

The reason for using multiple smaller filters is twofold:
1. You can achieve a steeper slope with lower Q, and thus less overshoot.
2. A lower frequency, a higher Q, and a higher gain will all push the biquad coefficients closer to the limitations of their precision. Using multiple smaller filters will help with a lower Q and lower gain, giving those biquad coefficients more "headroom" as far as their precision limitations. This can be especially important with the MiniDSP 2x4HD, because it uses 96kHz sample rate which eats into that headroom. Running into the precision limitations would manifest itself as "error" in the implementation of the filters in the DSP. In other words, the actual result of the filter would differ from the expected result.
 
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