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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
It's truly pathetic that in this day and age, and at these price points, that the new BD players, Pio 05/51, Panny BD50 (don't know about the Sony 550- I suspect the same) do not have selectable XO's, and have lousy distance options.


In essence- lousy Bass management.

There are no excuses, this has been done well for years, but they refuse to include it for $5-800.


For 800 you can't get decent BM options? What?

Way too many folks are still using great analog gear at this time for them to disregard these features.

This is THE reason I don't have a BD player yet, I refuse to pay outrageous prices for things that should be included at reasonable prices, and I bet there are many folks like myself that are just waiting to spend $ on a format that refuses to give the customer what they want.


I spend alot more $ on stuff like this than the average Joe.


I just don't get it.
 

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I agree, that they could use better DSP chips, but why bother, when most users wouldn't use them?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun /forum/post/14171594


I agree, that they could use better DSP chips, but why bother, when most users wouldn't use them?

Couldn't agree more. IMHO 100% ppl are awed by PQ, but only a handful really care about SQ.


muzz, I agree and I believe we are in the same boat. I invested in a 7.1 "future proof" system just for this kind of thing. Unfortunately they are expecting the folks who invested in this kind of future proofing are the ones who would get high end gear...


However I was wondering why you would want to play around with Bass Management with lossless codecs (THD, DTS-MA)? The frequency distribution should be as the movie intended, so no crossover is required. For lossy codecs, I would bite the bullet knowing that I can't mess with it. Besides almost every major studio includes a lossless track these days.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I'm not sure I understand.

The player determines the XO over analog out unless set to large correct?

Alot of Pre/Pros have sparse control over analog in.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by garien /forum/post/14171791


However I was wondering why you would want to play around with Bass Management with lossless codecs (THD, DTS-MA)? The frequency distribution should be as the movie intended, so no crossover is required. For lossy codecs, I would bite the bullet knowing that I can't mess with it. Besides almost every major studio includes a lossless track these days.


Maybe you know more than I do, but who is to say what is in the LFE track? It might be a mix of everything, allowing the playback equipment to determine where the crossover is.
 

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You can start another thread to clarify, or someone else can jump in to correct me.


From what I understand your statment is true when it pertains to "classic" decoding. i.e. when it is a 2 channel output, it has to decide what XO to use for bass, so this is where you can really utilize your sub to help off-load the mains, and produce those sweet 18 Hz rumbles, and cut it off at say... 50Hz depending on what your mains can handle.


Now when you are considering 5.1 or 7.1 decodes, the decoder already has seperate streams for each channel, so it will output it right over the analog outputs. The .1 channel already has its very own frequency range to output, whether your sub can take it or not.


On some players, they give you the option of choosing, if say ... you have a Center Channel speaker or something to that effect, large, small etc... so that's all post processing and it'll muddle with the true sound.


So in effect what I do is this: Use my 5 year old receiver for post processing (which it will do a great job with everything but THD or DTS-HD HR/MA), and use the EXT. in from the player for decodes, and not play around with settings that would introduce any post processing. This way I am getting what the movie is supposed to sound like from the lossless track, and post process on the others to my liking.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by muzz /forum/post/14170973


I spend alot more $ on stuff like this than the average Joe.


I just don't get it.

My take...they're targeting the average Joe and their shiny new HDMI receiver. I think one of the sad truths is that, yes, one might expect a bit more functionality from a $500 BR player, but the fact of the matter is that these really are the "average consumer" level players right now (granted, there are a few exceptions).


Don't get me wrong, I'm really disappointed too, but the way I look at it, unless/until I upgrade to a processor with HDMI, I've got two choices. Decent audio and superb PQ via BR, or decent audio and "okay" (relatively speaking) PQ via SD DVD. When I looked at it that way, I bit the bullet and ordered the BR player.


Just my 2c.



Scott
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjktcvs /forum/post/14172111


Maybe you know more than I do, but who is to say what is in the LFE track? It might be a mix of everything, allowing the playback equipment to determine where the crossover is.

always thought the .1 is its own channel with its own track, range etc....
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by garien /forum/post/14172356


You can start another thread to clarify, or someone else can jump in to correct me.


From what I understand your statment is true when it pertains to "classic" decoding. i.e. when it is a 2 channel output, it has to decide what XO to use for bass, so this is where you can really utilize your sub to help off-load the mains, and produce those sweet 18 Hz rumbles, and cut it off at say... 50Hz depending on what your mains can handle.


Now when you are considering 5.1 or 7.1 decodes, the decoder already has seperate streams for each channel, so it will output it right over the analog outputs. The .1 channel already has its very own frequency range to output, whether your sub can take it or not.


On some players, they give you the option of choosing, if say ... you have a Center Channel speaker or something to that effect, large, small etc... so that's all post processing and it'll muddle with the true sound.


So in effect what I do is this: Use my 5 year old receiver for post processing (which it will do a great job with everything but THD or DTS-HD HR/MA), and use the EXT. in from the player for decodes, and not play around with settings that would introduce any post processing. This way I am getting what the movie is supposed to sound like from the lossless track, and post process on the others to my liking.

The "problem" isn't with the track per se, it's with your speakers' ability to reproduce it. Unless your speakers can truly handle "full range", you've got to redirect the bass to the subwoofer. The LFE channel will always just go to your sub, but again, unless you've got 5/7 truly full range speakers, you're going to have to redirect at least some of the bass in the non-LFE channels to the sub as well.



Scott
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by garien /forum/post/14171791


However I was wondering why you would want to play around with Bass Management with lossless codecs (THD, DTS-MA)? The frequency distribution should be as the movie intended, so no crossover is required.

The issue is not what the bass distribution is in the track (lossy or lossless), but whether your speakers can handle the frequencies, or if you want to redirect the sound below a given frequency (determined by what your speakers can handle) to your subwoofer. Besides the fact that the sub is much better equipped to do the heavy lifiing than 99.99% of speakers, it also relieves the AVR of having to amplify the low stuff.


As for the speaker distances, the track itself has absolutely nothing to do with this. Sound takes time to travel through the air, and if is reaches your ears at different times than what it should, the effect can be somewhat disconcerting (not to mention wave interference).


Again, the crossover has nothing to do with the frequency distribution, just what speaker (or sub) reproduces what frequency...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssteel01 /forum/post/14172393


My take...they're targeting the average Joe and their shiny new HDMI receiver. I think one of the sad truths is that, yes, one might expect a bit more functionality from a $500 BR player, but the fact of the matter is that these really are the "average consumer" level players right now (granted, there are a few exceptions).


Don't get me wrong, I'm really disappointed too, but the way I look at it, unless/until I upgrade to a processor with HDMI, I've got two choices. Decent audio and superb PQ via BR, or decent audio and "okay" (relatively speaking) PQ via SD DVD. When I looked at it that way, I bit the bullet and ordered the BR player.


Just my 2c.



Scott

I agree completely. By the time we get a decent analog section, I will have upgraded anyway, so it it's pointless to continue to wait. For now, I'm OK with using SPDIF for the correct BM...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by garien /forum/post/14172356


You can start another thread to clarify, or someone else can jump in to correct me.


From what I understand your statment is true when it pertains to "classic" decoding. i.e. when it is a 2 channel output, it has to decide what XO to use for bass, so this is where you can really utilize your sub to help off-load the mains, and produce those sweet 18 Hz rumbles, and cut it off at say... 50Hz depending on what your mains can handle.


Now when you are considering 5.1 or 7.1 decodes, the decoder already has seperate streams for each channel, so it will output it right over the analog outputs. The .1 channel already has its very own frequency range to output, whether your sub can take it or not.


On some players, they give you the option of choosing, if say ... you have a Center Channel speaker or something to that effect, large, small etc... so that's all post processing and it'll muddle with the true sound.


So in effect what I do is this: Use my 5 year old receiver for post processing (which it will do a great job with everything but THD or DTS-HD HR/MA), and use the EXT. in from the player for decodes, and not play around with settings that would introduce any post processing. This way I am getting what the movie is supposed to sound like from the lossless track, and post process on the others to my liking.

Your assumption are incorrect unless all your speakers are capable of playing down to 20/30 Hz (even the big speakers won't). The reason bass management is needed is because must of us use bookshelf speakers for front/center/surround so any bass directed to those speakers needs to be redirected to the subwofer which is capable of handling it. Again even if floor standing speakers are used that doesn't guarantee they can handle bass below 40Hz better than a subwofer thus again the need for proper bass management.


The thing that gets me is that some player don't even include delay or distance settings. That is just plain wrong and stupid.
 

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Don't disagree with all... just not sure what equipment the OP has but since he made the statement that he spends $ on stuff like this, I figured he has pretty decend sound equipment.


All my front speakers (main + center) have build-in subs that handle down to at least 20Hz, and I use floor standing rears for my rears (used to be my main) that can only handle down to 32Hz and a sub that can handle down to 13Hz. http://www.definitivetech.com/specs/specs.html


With these new codecs, they have really widened the freq ranges so my rears might not be able to handle the full theoretical ranges. But in reality most sound tracks still rely on .1 for rumbles.


Distance settings - I agree it should be incl. for any player that has analog outs.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by muzz /forum/post/14170973


It's truly pathetic that in this day and age, and at these price points, that the new BD players, Pio 05/51, Panny BD50 (don't know about the Sony 550- I suspect the same) do not have selectable XO's, and have lousy distance options.

I've been wondering about this issue as well, but does anyone really know if this is true on these upcoming players? I know the owner's manual has been floating around on the net for the Pioneer, but until someone gets one and actually says yes or no with regard to the crossovers, it all may be much ado about nothing. You know how manuals are (Denon's are particularly terrible and you need a decoder ring to figure them out).
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by badboi /forum/post/14172796


You know how manuals are (Denon's are particularly terrible and you need a decoder ring to figure them out).

Hi - are you refering to Denon receivers or Denon BD players? Or just Denon in general? Just wanted to know in the context of where you question was heading with reference to Bass Management.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by garien /forum/post/14172876


Hi - are you refering to Denon receivers or Denon BD players? Or just Denon in general? Just wanted to know in the context of where you question was heading with reference to Bass Management.

I'm talking about manuals, and how sometimes things are not mentioned or are mentioned incorrectly in them. Denon manuals always leave me scratching my head and wondering WTF I just read. What I'm trying to say is until someone has one of these players and reports on it, we won't know how it handles bass management (unless the manufacturer comes out and states what it will or won't do).
 

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I do have freinds that always assert to do analog multi-channel justice, you need to have a sub(s) in line with your front mains....



There may be some truth to this in all honesty. Either way, surely solves the issue there.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER /forum/post/14173045


I do have freinds that always assert to do analog multi-channel justice, you need to have a sub(s) in line with your front mains....



There may be some truth to this in all honesty. Either way, surely solves the issue there.

John, can you explain that please

I currently use a non HDMI receiver (no Blu Ray yet) with dig coax in and the LFE out to the subs for standard DVD's


It has analog, 5.1 and I assumed that if I had a Blu Ray player that decoded in the player and I went analog that the subs would get the base they were supposed to . Now this thread has me really confused



Would I not just keep the subs connected the same way they are now.


At this rate I will never get BluRay



Thanks

Dan
 

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as has been explained to me, the .1 information will always go to the subwoofer but there are also low frequencies that get sent to the other five (or seven) channels that might be better off being redirected to the subwoofer. you would need bass management in the blu-ray player to do that unless you have an AVR or pre/pro that can do that in the analog realm, or you are willing to have an additional analog to digital back to analog conversion introduced into your audio if you have your AVR or pre/pro do bass management via its DSP.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER /forum/post/14173045


I do have freinds that always assert to do analog multi-channel justice, you need to have a sub(s) in line with your front mains....



There may be some truth to this in all honesty. Either way, surely solves the issue there.

Maybe...but having subs literally as part of the mains just trades one issue for another (IMO). Then you still have the same xover issue if you're center/surrounds are less bass capable. Now, if you had 5/7 identical, bass capable speakers plus a sub or two....well...now we're in a pretty happy place.


I suppose the really "easy" solution is just to bitsream over HDMI to a receiver capable of decoding the new codecs that also has (presumably) a more sophisticated BM system.



Scott
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by badboi /forum/post/14172796


I've been wondering about this issue as well, but does anyone really know if this is true on these upcoming players? I know the owner's manual has been floating around on the net for the Pioneer, but until someone gets one and actually says yes or no with regard to the crossovers, it all may be much ado about nothing. You know how manuals are (Denon's are particularly terrible and you need a decoder ring to figure them out).

All I have to go by is the manual that pioneer has provided.
 
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