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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Many threads over the past months have been interspersed with a side debate about the "ScreenDoor Effect". I suggest a challenge to resolve this issue - at least in the minds of the participants :)


Bay Area stores which can provide an adequate assortment of size & brand & technology are needed. Rogo has suggested Magnolia Hi-Fi. The one in San Ramon was somewhat light on variety, so maybe one on the Peninsula would be better.


I suggest we include 37", 42", 46", and 50" Plasma as well as 37" and 40" LCD (direct view, not RPTV) from as many manufacturers as is practical.


So, anyone else want to join in the fun? Rogo, I hope you'll be there as the originator of the challenge :)
 

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What will the control element of the experiment be?


I wish I were in CA, as I think I owe rogo a beer/beverage of choice - I probably ticked him off a bit...


-Jon
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Don't know about a "control" element - many things will be out of our control :-(


Rogo suggested a "twice display width" typical viewing distance to provide a "Yes" or "No" to the question "Can you see the ScreenDoor Effect?". I think we need a "relative" report (e.g. ScreenDoor Effect of a certain or any level visible at 2X the distance on the Fuji versus the Sampo).


Others have commented that the ScreenDoor Effect has two degrees:

1 - Viewer can actually discern the black lines between pixels in both H & V

2 - Viewer observes a general "haziness" without being able to "focus" on the black lines individually


I do think it will be interesting to compare results among members with difffering visual acuity. Rogo mentioned he has 20:13 after Lasik. I'm about 20:20 with Disposable Contacts (though it varies with how long I've worn them). Others might be glasses-assisted or even lucky in this respect. Age is also important. As many of us know now or will soon realize, despite having acceptable distance focal powers, our short distance focal powers are likely waning. For me, at 43, I've started that decline, unfortunately... My Eye Doctor says it's inevitable for all of us as parts of our eyes get harder as we age. Oh, well...


If/when interest solidifies in this test, we should think about setting a date (and, of course, a location).


Anyone up for it?
 

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I was just at Magnolia in Colma on Tuesday. They had about 15 different plasmas on display. Brands included Fujitsu, Panny, Sony, Pioneer, Samsung (I think). A couple of miles from there are a CC and GG. They have brands including Fujitsu, Panny, Hitachi, Sony, Philips, Sharp, Viewsonic. Anothe mile or so away is a Costco, which has Sampo, and a couple of other cheaper brands.
 

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I could do Colma or Palo Alto Magnolia. Each has a good selection apparently.


The way to do the test is for us to stand 3 screen widths away for starters an the move closer and closer until we are bothered by / can see screendoor.


Then we re-do the experiment starting at 1 screen width and moving farther and farther.


You have to start far away because this will "calibrate" our susceptibiliy from the change of negative to positive visibility. If you do it the other way, you will be biased by initially seeing the screendoor. Yet, this methodology allows you to also test the positive to negative visibility for comparison's sake.


We will look like idiots doing this, but I will still attend.


Mark
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
It would also be awesome if we could some how single or double blind this.


I was thinking of cutting out a 36" diagonal 16x9 hole in a 55" diagonal piece of black-painted cardboard if folks think that would help. Unfortunately, the location of each plasma affixed to the walls would make it hard for us to not know :)


I'm actually out in Pleasanton, but am very willing to travel to a better Magnolia etc... than I have anywhere near me.


BTW, are we just conceding that nobody can see ScreenDoor at any (reasonable) distance on an LCD or will some of these shops have any of those?
 

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I am in Bkly., but would like to attend such a screening. Don't mind going down the Peninsula or out to Pleasanton. Either weekends or evenings is o.k.

FWIW, I have had a 42" Panny for 15 months.


...mike
 

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I have no need for this test to be "blind" because contrary to what you may believe, I have no agenda.


I have been in the Bay Area for 17 years and, sheepishly, don't know where Pleasanton even is. Do you prefer Colma or Palo Alto?


Mark
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
> I have no need for this test to be "blind" because contrary to what you may believe, I have no agenda.


Now who's making an assumption? :) I just think it would be useful to address any/all biases - just as you suggested we start at 3 screen widths and move inward initially...


Pleasanton, btw, is at the intersection of 580 & 680 - no doubt you pass thru it every time you drive to Tahoe and didn't even know it...


Palo Alto is probably easier for folks from both Berkeley and Pleasanton. Colma's quite a jaunt for me, particularly.


What about dates? I prefer a Saturday any weekend in May except the 1st one.
 

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Pleasanton is easier for me (Bkly.) than Palo Alto, altho that would be o.k. The advantage of Pleasanton is that it is at the junction of 2 major freeways. Any Sat. is o.k.

...mike
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Not being a current Plasma owner, do folks have a suggestion on what type of content we should view to best evaluate the effect? Obviously, an all black picture isn't going to show it at all, but a totally white image isn't exactly fair either.
 

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Video images are what people watch. I fail to see why anything else is relevant. If I didn't like the look of my TV displaying a test pattern, it wouldn't much matter.


We could bring a couple of DVDs and watch some HDNet, SD OTA, etc.
 

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Rogo,


I'm in complete agreement about the test pattern vs video images. My S-video connection produces some visible anomolies on the AVIA sharpness patterns vs my component connection. Yet on video material, I find the S-Video over-all superior. I'll go with the film image test over the pattern test.


Rich H.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
PLASMAs:

Fujitsu 42" P42HHA10WS

Fujitsu 50" P50XHA10US

Mitsubishi 50" PD5010

Panasonic 37" PT37PD4P

Panasonic 42" PT42PD3P

Panasonic 50" PT50PD4P

Pioneer 42" PRO-800HD

Pioneer 50" PRO-1000HD

Samsung 42" SPL4225K

Samsung 42" SPN4235X/XAA

Samsung 50" HPL5025K

Sony 42" KE42TS2

Sony 42" KE42XBR900


LCDs:

Sony 30" KLV30XBR900


Unfortunately, only one LCD - and not a very good one imho...


I like the layout in Magnolia HiFi. It will allow realistic (and unrealistic, for that matter) viewing distances. The BestBuy over in Dublin, for instance, has most of its Plasmas/LCDs in an aisle - meaning either a max viewing distance of about 5 feet or from a sharp angle :-(...


I didn't capture the resolution of each display, but I think we can recall what each is.


As for content to view, I was able to sample dark and light material in both film and animated source material. Basically, any light image most accentuated the effect. Moving images are paticularly demonstrable of the screendoor effect as a light/dark transition which moves means the screen door effectively moves... Given this, I think we need to "standardize" on test material.


As for non-DVD input, San Ramon is caught in the TriValley and, hence, is starved from OTA HD content. I have seen HDNET on display at this particular outlet, however... It's hard to perform a repeatable test with broadcast content which we don't control...


So would folks be "ok" with DVD content only?
 

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Magnolia seems to have done an excellent job displaying their plasmas and and several on display in all their new stores here in the Bay Area. I have been at the one in Emryville, and it is well done as well.

San Ramon is fine for me.


...mike
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
PLASMAs:

Fujitsu 42" P42HHA10WS

Fujitsu 42" P42VHA20US

Fujitsu 50" P50XHA10US

Panasonic 42" PT42PD3

Philips 32" 32FD9954

Philips 42" 42FD9954

Sony 32" KE32TS2

Sony 42" KE42TS2

Sony 42" PKG-KE42XBR900

ViewSonic 42" VPW425


LCDs:

Sharp 30" LC30HV4U

Sharp 37" LC37HV4U


I was very impressed with the 37" Sharp - 1st time I had seen that one. MUCH better than the other LCDs I've seen recently... [I had seen the 30" Sharp before, but not the 4U incarnation, so that one was new to me as well...]


As for HD content, the Good Guys is lucky enough to be located right between the Pleasanton and Dublin Ridges - i.e. somewhat line-of-sight gap to Sutro Towers 30 miles away on the Peninsula which broadcast almost all of the HD content in the Bay Area. Their Hughes box was able to tune in the local CBS (5), the local ABC (7), and the local PBS (9) digital channels. Alas, only the PBS channel was airing HD content at the time I was there.
 

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San Ramon you are not likely to get me too. Dublin, I am not sure of where that is. You are many times more likely to get me to Palo Alto (obviously very close) or Colma.


Mark
 

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Mark, you don't get out much do you? Dublin is at I-680 and I-580 and pleasanton is east about 25 miles on 580.


I guess I just venture out quite a bit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
> Mark, you don't get out much do you? Dublin is at I-680 and I-580 and pleasanton is east about 25 miles on 580.


M.S., don't know if I parsed what you stated above... but for what it's worth, Pleasanton & Dublin are adjacent, South and North of 580 - both at the 580/680 interchange. San Ramon is the next town North on 680 about 3 miles up.


As for getting Rogo involved, I'm pretty motivated to make it possible for that. Rogo is the one who issued the challenge afterall...


From what I understand, the Magnolia HiFi in Palo Alto should have the same selection & layout as the San Ramon store I am familiar with. I am quite willing to jaunt down that way - it's only 30 miles away afterall :)
 
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