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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Bears? Haven't ran into any yet but they are close by ...if I feel the need to get up close and personal with a Grizzly, what the locals affectionately call the The Bear Jail is 8 miles away.

Canyons? Not on site...the lot is pretty flat but I can see a few a couple miles away.
Bunkers? Yes!!! there will be one...this part is true!
Builds? Eventually, but if left to my devices expect glacial pace.

The Bear Canyon Bunker Build gets it's name via geography...we are building this house a few miles away from what is probably one of many Bear Canyons in Montana (Bozeman for this one). The bunker aspect comes from the space being a room below our garage...it has solid concrete for all boundary surfaces. The room size starts out at 33'10" x 20'3" x 13'...finished dimensions will shrink after walls, ceiling, and floor decking are added, but should end up 29'8" x 19'4" x 11'4"-9'10" (back row, front row). Spancrete was the original plan for the garage floor but with no dealers within 400 miles I was convinced to go with a 'locally fabricated composite slab' consisting of concrete poured onto Vulcraft metal decking that is welded to 12" steel I-beams. To end up with 11'8" ceilings the dig needed to be an additional 3' deeper than the house basement, so it was dug with 13' walls. The house basement is a 10' dig and will end up with a 9'10" finished ceiling. The fact that this isn't a walkout made excavation a bit more interesting (and expensive), but the resulting sound isolation and climate control from being so deep in the ground should make for an incredible space to hole up and enjoy movies and music in.


All is not perfect in bunker-land though and there are some challenges. Solid concrete rooms can be a b!tch to tame and generate many more room modes as the bass can't dissipate like it would with typical lossy walls. Nyal Mellor at Acoustic Frontiers is coming up with a sound plan (both literally and figuratively). I've been collecting data on AVS for many years and had been planning to do a good-size theater build of my own design, but I figured Nyal is money well spent. I'm viewing the project as a one-time chance to get it right from the start and not an ongoing science project. He is working behind the scenes scheming and crunching numbers as this is being typed even though I don't anticipate starting construction until sometime next spring...the hole was just dug last week and the foundation will be done sometime next week. We aren't expecting to move in until early spring 2016...(EDIT...HaHaHaHa...spring, LOL... :D Ended up being later October of 2016.)

Another downside about the room is the concrete floor...tough to excite the concrete enough to provide the wonderful tactile feel that a wood joist floor provides. Okay, it's basically impossible. If I do experience tactility in the concrete, that's a problem for me (and possibly the rest of the world) as the house is 55 straight-line miles from this thing -- the world's largest active super volcano at 34 x 45 miles in area. If it blows I'll be one of the first to go!


Preliminary speaker choices:

*Three Yorkville U15 Unity for LCR
*Six JBL Control 322C (12" pro coax w/ compression driver) for two rows of side surrounds and rear surround
*Eight JBL Control 328C (8" pro coax w/ compression driver) for Atmos


The U15's and 322's are cousins perhaps and have sound synergy; the Unities use a BMS 4550 compression driver and the 322C a JBL 2407h; which is a BMS 4540nd.

I also have Tannoy 12" Dual-Concentrics (same drivers used in their Definition DC12i custom install speaker) that are in the running for LCR (perhaps augmented by pairs of JBL 2226J 15" as midbass?...have 6 of these). I own 13 of the Tannoys and could use them for side/rear as well and go with 8" Duals for Atmos.

There will be a stout full-width baffle wall in either scenario!

Bass will be 'ample' at a minimum -- twenty 18" drivers Infinite Baffle style: :)

*Twelve FI IB318 18's will be installed in the baffle wall
*Eight SI HT18's will be sprinkled around the back half of the room. The SI's will be in sealed enclosures...

Amplifiers and DSP are from QSC:

*Three DCA3022 and two DCA2422 for subwoofers
*Three DCA1622 for LCR and 2 DCA1644 for side/rear surround
*Two CX168 8-channel for Atmos
*Configurations could change as I have 23 DCA amps, lol

*Three Basis DSP (or more...8 Basis/Rave boxes are available) will handle all DSP needs

The projector will be a JVC of some variant and the processor probably a Monolith HTP-1...would LOVE a Datasat or Trinnov but we'll see


With Nyal specifying the acoustic treatments the room should end up sounding pretty damn good.


(Will add more room details and do this better when I know more)

No nifty renders or anything but here are pictures of the Acoustic Frontiers layout concept for a better visual and one of the hole in the ground.










 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Very cool! So is the ceiling concrete as well? Or do you have a soundproofing plan?
Looking up at the ceiling from inside the room, you will see steel beams that have a thick metal deck bolted to the top of them; 8" of concrete will be poured on top of the decking and is the garage floor above (there's also a waterproofing membrane in there). The general construction of the room should do the heavy lifting for sound control, but there are some things that can be done to lessen impact noises and for sound quality.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
If that's a windows pc, download the windows snipping tool. It's rather handy. :)
In Adobe Acrobat, Edit menu > Take a snapshot

Paste the image in an app where you can then save as picture. Outlook, PowerPoint, etc.
Appreciate the tips gentlemen! Tried the snapshot in Adobe but couldn't find anything on this machine that would accept the paste.

The Snipping Tool is indeed rather handy and was even installed on this Windows 7 machine; had never used it before.
 

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Nice.

Looks like you're finally getting the ball rolling on this!

No need to reinvent most of the wheel ;). Sounds like your room will be extremely similar to mine, IB subs (FiCar318's no less :D), room under garage, minisplit....I think I documented most of my build in a decent amount of detail.

I can count on one hand the number of times I fired up the AC for the room this summer. I will say that it has been a pretty mild summer though. I do see you're going with 11ft ceiling vs. my 10ft. SWEET! Makes Atmos all the better.

I can't recommend more the need for some sort of transducer for the fullest experience, especially on a concrete floor. BUT...if you're dead set against them, at the very least put each row of seating on a "mini-platform". I detailed how to build one in my build thread. I don't use the transducers when I listen to music and still get PLENTY of visceral impact from the subs since the whole platform is off the floor being supported by five 2" diameter rubber feet. That and the fact the platform is literally flimsy allows and bass energy to transfer itself into the seating much easier.

You really can't beat the sound of an IB install. Does it eat up real-estate? Sure, but then so do a bunch of big, sound coloring boxes. If you got the space go IB!!! :) I cross mine over at 200hz. I used to run them at 80, but read about someone on this forum running theirs at 200 or 250??? I thought I would give it a shot. I experimented with various crossovers from 80-250. In my room, 200hz sounds and FEELS the best.

You actually won't run into a bunch of bass problems (due to the concrete enclosure) if you divide the location of your subs up. I spaced mine with 4 up front and 2 each in each angled rear corner. No major bass issues at all.



Do you already have an idea of how you want to dress/finish the room up? The style or theme.


Looking forward to seeing this go together.

Best of luck!!!!!!!!! :D


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For HVAC removing air from the room & replacing with outside, fresh, conditioned air is a nice to have. Think about the time of the year when you can open the windows in your home, how nice it is to have fresh air. It's not that great, but it does noticeably improve indoor air quality. At least I think so.

For tactile sound, if you consider 2nd row ok because it's on the riser... then you could look at digging out just the HT another couple feet, so you enter on the riser, and have both 1st and 2nd row on a multi-level riser. I like being elevated a bit in the room, but I don't recline.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Subbed!


Glad you finally got your build thread started!

As far as Griz........

I suggest packing a Casull, but I must admit......I'll soon be packing Xframe SW 460 for those pesky Alaskan Brownies! One look at 1200+ pounds of mean had me looking to move up the chain concerning bear repellant! :eek:
Good to have you on board Cory! :)

The bears in the immediate neighborhood are of the black variety, but browns can be found a bit deeper into the mountains about 10-15 miles away. I know what you are saying on the repellent -- seems like something that goes 'bang' is a more appropriate self-defense system! That said, I see many dudes try that approach and find it ineffective due to things getting real in a hurry...they say the spray is the best deterrent. A guy from my hometown met his unfortunate demise and became brown bear food in Jellystone a few months back.
 

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Good to have you on board Cory! :)

The bears in the immediate neighborhood are of the black variety, but browns can be found a bit deeper into the mountains about 10-15 miles away. I know what you are saying on the repellent -- seems like something that goes 'bang' is a more appropriate self-defense system! That said, I see many dudes try that approach and find it ineffective due to things getting real in a hurry...they say the spray is the best deterrent. A guy from my hometown met his unfortunate demise and became brown bear food in Jellystone a few months back.
I pack both! Spray, but hard cast 320 grains for back up! ;) :D

Super Redhawk Toklat has served its purpose............Alaskan Brownies are no joke! :eek:
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Nice.

Looks like you're finally getting the ball rolling on this!

No need to reinvent most of the wheel ;). Sounds like your room will be extremely similar to mine, IB subs (FiCar318's no less :D), room under garage, minisplit....I think I documented most of my build in a decent amount of detail.

I can count on one hand the number of times I fired up the AC for the room this summer. I will say that it has been a pretty mild summer though. I do see you're going with 11ft ceiling vs. my 10ft. SWEET! Makes Atmos all the better.

I can't recommend more the need for some sort of transducer for the fullest experience, especially on a concrete floor. BUT...if you're dead set against them, at the very least put each row of seating on a "mini-platform". I detailed how to build one in my build thread. I don't use the transducers when I listen to music and still get PLENTY of visceral impact from the subs since the whole platform is off the floor being supported by five 2" diameter rubber feet. That and the fact the platform is literally flimsy allows and bass energy to transfer itself into the seating much easier.

You really can't beat the sound of an IB install. Does it eat up real-estate? Sure, but then so do a bunch of big, sound coloring boxes. If you got the space go IB!!! :) I cross mine over at 200hz. I used to run them at 80, but read about someone on this forum running theirs at 200 or 250??? I thought I would give it a shot. I experimented with various crossovers from 80-250. In my room, 200hz sounds and FEELS the best.

You actually won't run into a bunch of bass problems (due to the concrete enclosure) if you divide the location of your subs up. I spaced mine with 4 up front and 2 each in each angled rear corner. No major bass issues at all.



Do you already have an idea of how you want to dress/finish the room up? The style or theme.


Looking forward to seeing this go together.

Best of luck!!!!!!!!! :D


.
Totally appreciate you blazing the trail rms8! Truth be told, I could have probably just put it on cruise control and copied most of your build. :) I've had the 'room under the garage' thing on my radar since finding out about such an animal about 8 months after building our last house...in 2001! :eek: You did an extremely nice job on documenting your build and I will be implementing similar elements. Don't forget, I own a pair of LS-6's as well...the thought has crossed my mind to find another one for a center. For the record, I bought my first quad pack of FI 18's about 7 years ago which probably precedes your purchase ...never been installed though. :eek:

Will definitely be doing something similar to what you did with the rubber isolation feet for the first row.

I could easily see running the sub system up to a 120-150-higher? point. I've played around with 120 in my current basement and sometimes find myself preferring it. With baffle wall augmentation of the mains, this could easily quell my desire to throw in the pairs of JBL 2226J's under each LCR.

As for a style or aesthetic, at the moment I'm thinking something along the lines of Peter M's super clean theater is what I'm shooting for (similar size room as well). I even have 66 yards of Guilford Chickory Blue fabric ready to install. I totally dig yours but am trying to buck some of the trend around here towards rustic...the majority of the houses in our neighborhood of 1-acre lots are new in the last 4 years but look like they need the siding replaced already as the weathered look is hot. :) We are going with neutral Hardie pre-painted colors along with stone and metal on the exterior.

Thanks again man! :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
For HVAC removing air from the room & replacing with outside, fresh, conditioned air is a nice to have. Think about the time of the year when you can open the windows in your home, how nice it is to have fresh air. It's not that great, but it does noticeably improve indoor air quality. At least I think so.

For tactile sound, if you consider 2nd row ok because it's on the riser... then you could look at digging out just the HT another couple feet, so you enter on the riser, and have both 1st and 2nd row on a multi-level riser. I like being elevated a bit in the room, but I don't recline.
Thanks for your input rabident! The fresh air aspect is something I had not really considered for the theater. I have lived in a city that is about 8 degrees warmer on average than where we are building and AC has been a necessity...we had an awesome walkout basement with 10 large windows that were all above ground but they were virtually never opened as it was either already cool enough or it was too hot outside in the 90's (even with temps pushing 100 the walkout basement never exceeded 72). Funny thing is the builder for our new house is actually telling us not to install the AC condenser the first year as we very well may not need it! He said only in the last 10-15 years has the climate warmed up enough to where people even consider AC in this neck of the woods (about a mile high at our lot), but with the combination of spray foam and cellulose (and the fact that our window package is way less aggressive than our current home) we very well may not need it.

The dig is done and it was already a significant upgrade to go down the additional 3' over the house basement. We have enough ceiling height that we will be able to do what you suggest -- first row should be 4" or so elevated and I'm guessing second row will be about 20". I totally agree with you on the reclining thing and actually plan to not have a single recliner in the whole room. :D
 

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On the tactile floor design aspect, I can say I love it :) I found the raised floor effect a more natural feel compared to ButKickers. The Butkickers have far more output though. I did my floor with simple cheap cutup blocks of DRIcore sub-flooring. I was going to use the U-boat blocks but found them to cost so much more given the amount needed. My only regret with my floor would be, I wish I spent the extra time to add twice the amount of screws. I was in a hurry to get the carpet down and thought it would be fine. Unfortunately, now I have one spot near the couch that creaks. Not to bad but some will notice. Still, I am VERY happy with my basic design and was everything I wanted it to sound and feel like. It was a lot of work and lost 3" of my rooms height but was worth it.

Oh, and the raised floor stops where the walls start. Completely decoupled.

 

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...Super Redhawk Toklat has served its purpose............Alaskan Brownies are no joke! :eek:

Serious weap right there. Had my eye on a 460S&W for a while. No real bear threat in Il....:cool:, just real bad politics.


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Totally appreciate you blazing the trail rms8! Truth be told, I could have probably just put it on cruise control and copied most of your build. :) I've had the 'room under the garage' thing on my radar since finding out about such an animal about 8 months after building our last house. You did an extremely nice job on documenting your build and I will be implementing similar elements. Don't forget, I own a pair of LS-6's as well...the thought has crossed my mind to find another one for a center. :) For the record, I bought my first quad pack of FI 18's about 7 years ago which probably precedes your purchase ...never been installed though. :eek:

Will definitely be doing something similar to what you did with the rubber isolation feet for the first row.

I could easily see running the sub system up to a 120-150-higher? point. I've played around with 120 in my current basement and sometimes find myself preferring it. With baffle wall augmentation of the mains, this could easily quell my desire to throw in the pairs of JBL 2226J's under each LCR.

As for a style or aesthetic, at the moment I'm thinking something along the lines of Peter M's super clean theater is what I'm shooting for (similar size room as well). I even have 66 yards of Guilford Chickory Blue fabric ready to install. I totally dig yours but am trying to buck some of the trend around here towards rustic...the majority of the houses in our neighborhood of 1-acre lots are new in the last 4 years but look like they need the siding replaced already as the weathered look is hot. :) We are going with neutral Hardie pre-painted colors along with stone and metal on the exterior.

Thanks again man! :)
Wait, so you have a set of GR Research speakers, you bought your FiCars WAY before you started your build, the room is under the garage, you'll more then likely go minisplit....WTH ? Do some of your hobbies include a race car (Ford of course), guns, building computers, weightlifting? Did you serve in the military? Is your last name just a bunch on consonants? LOL. :p

I actually purchased all eight of my IB318's about 3-4 years before we finally moved into our new home. Infinite Baffle was very high on my priority list. :D

Glad you posted that link to Peter M's HT. Don't recall seeing it. That's a very elegant look to the minimalist approach. Very, VERY nicely orchestrated!

I was very surprised myself to discover how much better my system sounded by raising the sub x-over. But, when you think about it, the ONLY reason 80Hz was ever chosen was due to it being the compromise frequency determined to work best for not being able to localize the subwoofer when home theater was in it's infancy and no one was running multiple subs. Skip ahead to today where many run more than one sub and the 80hz compromise is no longer needed. In fact, the 80hz compromise is just that, a HUGE compromise. If you definitely do go IB, seriously try to evaluate some movies and music at 200hz x-over. I was so amazed. SOOOO glad I read that members entry about doing it as well. I never would have thought trying it out.




Do you have any pics of what your home will look like on the outside yet? Would love to see!


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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
On the tactile floor design aspect, I can say I love it :) I found the raised floor effect a more natural feel compared to ButKickers. The Butkickers have far more output though. I did my floor with simple cheap cutup blocks of DRIcore sub-flooring. I was going to use the U-boat blocks but found them to cost so much more given the amount needed. My only regret with my floor would be, I wish I spent the extra time to add twice the amount of screws. I was in a hurry to get the carpet down and thought it would be fine. Unfortunately, now I have one spot near the couch that creaks. Not to bad but some will notice. Still, I am VERY happy with my basic design and was everything I wanted it to sound and feel like. It was a lot of work and lost 3" of my rooms height but was worth it.

Oh, and the raised floor stops where the walls start. Completely decoupled.
Thanks for the pic gamest! That looks just like the method I was envisioning -- straightforward, simple, and relatively low-profile. Did you use CDX plywood for the decking?
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
Wait, so you have a set of GR Research speakers, you bought your FiCars WAY before you started your build, the room is under the garage, you'll more then likely go minisplit....WTH ? Do some of your hobbies include a race car (Ford of course), guns, building computers, weightlifting? Did you serve in the military? Is your last name just a bunch on consonants? LOL. :p

I actually purchased all eight of my IB318's about 3-4 years before we finally moved into our new home. Infinite Baffle was very high on my priority list. :D

Glad you posted that link to Peter M's HT. Don't recall seeing it. That's a very elegant look to the minimalist approach. Very, VERY nicely orchestrated!

I was very surprised myself to discover how much better my system sounded by raising the sub x-over. But, when you think about it, the ONLY reason 80Hz was ever chosen was due to it being the compromise frequency determined to work best for not being able to localize the subwoofer when home theater was in it's infancy and no one was running multiple subs. Skip ahead to today where many run more than one sub and the 80hz compromise is no longer needed. In fact, the 80hz compromise is just that, a HUGE compromise. If you definitely do go IB, seriously try to evaluate some movies and music at 200hz x-over. I was so amazed. SOOOO glad I read that members entry about doing it as well. I never would have thought trying it out.

Do you have any pics of what your home will look like on the outside yet? Would love to see!.
We are kindred spirits:

I was into off-road racing in the mid-90's; many of my buddies had/have drag cars and FORD was the most preferred...never had my own but helped out on many. My race truck was a Dodge RamCharger (trying to do something different back then...would have been much easier to run a Bronco and in retrospect I should have as they had better suspension and way more aftermarket support). Did all of the work in my buddies fab shop and he bleeds blue...took a lot of grief over the Dodge but it did work relatively well and was nearly bulletproof. Tow rig of choice is a tuned Powerstroke though.

I do enjoy guns but not at the enthusiast level -- own a FNH FNP 9mm and will be getting one of FN's FNX Tactical 45's soon. I often tell people that I am one of 12 able-bodied adult men in the state of Montana that doesn't hunt though. :) Have gone out and shot a few deer but my dad didn't hunt either and it just never called to me.

Hope to get back into weightlifting once the new house is built...there will be a 22' x 24' room right next to the theater that should be a great space. Lived that lifestyle from about '95-'99 and could have competed but had no desire to get up on a stage in a speedo. :eek: Got married and started raising kids in 2000 and fell out of the game. Still eat right and am relatively active in sports and have always said I'll get back into it. Made a push in 2006 and flew out to Chicago and bought a 2 year-old Nissan Armada...detoured through Kansas City on the drive home and loaded it down with a pile of gym-quality equipment from a wholesaler (linear bearing Smith with free weight gun rack on the front and selectorized 200-lb. stack along with a linear bearing hack squat/leg press...both Keys Fitness). Added 1400 lbs. of Troy VTX grip plates and pro-style dumbbells through 100 lbs. locally and figured I would get back to hitting it hard but dropped off again as all of this was crammed into a 14'x13' area of my basement with 7'6" ceilings and I lost my fire. I need to be inspired by space apparently...or I'm just getting lazier as I get older...we'll see I guess. :)

Never served but it's been real funny how many numerous acquaintances have assumed I have or am military over the years; must be my parenting style! :D Dad was in the Army in Vietnam for 4 years.

The name thing is a bit spooky. My dad was actually adopted into a family with the name 'Cysewski' in his mid-teens and I carried that name until deciding to change it to my mom's maiden name at age 26. Dad died when I was 14 and he and my mom had divorced a few years prior; the Cysewski died in a plane crash a year after adopting him and the mom remarried so we didn't have any contact with other Cysewskis. I tell people I changed it because I got tired of being Polish and all of the 'fun' that goes along with the name, but 90% of the family are Smiths so it only made sense. :D

The only thing there I don't identify with is building computers...seems like I am always on one and I can swap parts, but I have 5 Dells and a Toughbook and am pretty boring there.

Sorry, got side-tracked.............memories............back to the theater. A higher-than-typical crossover point to the IB may be just what the doctor ordered to shore up the midbass and allow me to banish the JBL 2226 midbass idea (which would certainly complicate the install in many ways). I really think the U15's should be pretty solid in the midbass installed in a baffle wall anyway.

No exterior photos of the house but here is a pic of the architects design review renderings (not super flashy but it should work for us):

 

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Thanks for the pic gamest! That looks just like the method I was envisioning -- straightforward, simple, and relatively low-profile. Did you use CDX plywood for the decking?
No, I thought about that but simply went with standard 4 X 8 OSB Tongue and Groove Subfloor 23/32" A friend convinced me it was a safer route. Due to common industry usage for floors, including my house now.

FYI I did all the work myself and it took days. It is a lot more work than it looks or sounds. Measuring everything once, twice, three times not to mess it up.

I look forward to see how this build comes out ;) Post lots of pictures.
 
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