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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey there, by the amount of information I've digested by searching the web regarding this subject I'm sure everyone's heard this question about a billion times. I'd just like to push it to 1 billion and 1 if I may


Many forums suggest an 80hz cutoff for crossover for all your speakers for home theater, while some suggest experimenting within the 60 - 80hz range. The theory it seems is that setting a crossover higher ( i.e. ) 80 frees up your speakers to cleanly reproduce sound above that range - whilst letting the sub do all the work below. Some have said that they like to have all their speakers if capable set the same, " singing the same song" if you will. I'm curious about the effectiveness of using different crossover frequencies. I have a 7.2 speaker setup, PSB T5 fronts, C5 center, and 4 B5 surrounds, and all are capable of playing easily down to 60hz. What are the benefits, if any, of setting the floorstanders at 60, and the others at 80, or setting say the fronts and the center at 60, and the 4 surrounds to 80? as I'm running two subs, is this just a waste and a drain to the front soundstage if setup this way? and what if any effect would that have when playing multi channel stereo for music?

Also, some have said that while AVR's might be rated to say - 100 watts per channel, that when played in a 7 speaker configuration, the power drops substantially. If this is the case, would setting all the speakers at 80 instead of the rears free up power to drive the fronts and center's mids and highs? My Receiver is a Denon 1913, rated at 90 watts per channel. My speaker specs are thus:




Thanks for your opinions!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton  /t/1470109/beating-a-dead-horse-60hz-vs-80hz-crossover-settings#post_23249116


Hey there, by the amount of information I've digested by searching the web regarding this subject I'm sure everyone's heard this question about a billion times. I'd just like to push it to 1 billion and 1 if I may


Many forums suggest an 80hz cutoff for crossover for all your speakers for home theater, while some suggest experimenting within the 60 - 80hz range. The theory it seems is that setting a crossover higher ( i.e. ) 80 frees up your speakers to cleanly reproduce sound above that range - whilst letting the sub do all the work below. Some have said that they like to have all their speakers if capable set the same, " singing the same song" if you will. I'm curious about the effectiveness of using different crossover frequencies. I have a 7.2 speaker setup, PSB T5 fronts, C5 center, and 4 B5 surrounds, and all are capable of playing easily down to 60hz. What are the benefits, if any, of setting the floorstanders at 60, and the others at 80, or setting say the fronts and the center at 60, and the 4 surrounds to 80? as I'm running two subs, is this just a waste and a drain to the front soundstage if setup this way? and what if any effect would that have when playing multi channel stereo for music?

Also, some have said that while AVR's might be rated to say - 100 watts per channel, that when played in a 7 speaker configuration, the power drops substantially. If this is the case, would setting all the speakers at 80 instead of the rears free up power to drive the fronts and center's mids and highs? My Receiver is a Denon 1913, rated at 90 watts per channel. My speaker specs are thus:


Thanks for your opinions!

When you run Audyssey, what does it set your speakers at? Your speakers are rated at 6 ohms, so your Denon is not working that hard to drive them, and PSB suggests at least 50 WPC. The best thing to do is experiment and set it up so it sounds good to you. You are correct about the power drop when using all 7 speakers - and with a 6 ohm load, the power output would be slightly lower, but I don't think you have anything to worry about. If Audyssey sets your front speakers to full range, very little LFE will be sent to your subs- set them to at least 60Hz for your left and right front channels.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-1913-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

HT Labs Measures


Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:

0.1% distortion at 102.3 watts

1% distortion at 117.7 watts


Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:

0.1% distortion at 70.5 watts

1% distortion at 81.7 watts


Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:

0.1% distortion at 52.7 watts

1% distortion at 68.7 watts


Also, some have said that while AVR's might be rated to say - 100 watts per channel, that when played in a 7 speaker configuration, the power drops substantially. If this is the case, would setting all the speakers at 80 instead of the rears free up power to drive the fronts and center's mids and highs? My Receiver is a Denon 1913, rated at 90 watts per channel.


Probably not. You're adjusting the crossover frequency of the speakers, not the power applied to each speaker.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by myoda  /t/1470109/beating-a-dead-horse-60hz-vs-80hz-crossover-settings#post_23250108


When you run Audyssey, what does it set your speakers at? Your speakers are rated at 6 ohms, so your Denon is not working that hard to drive them, and PSB suggests at least 50 WPC. The best thing to do is experiment and set it up so it sounds good to you. You are correct about the power drop when using all 7 speakers - and with a 6 ohm load, the power output would be slightly lower, but I don't think you have anything to worry about. If Audyssey sets your front speakers to full range, very little LFE will be sent to your subs- set them to at least 60Hz for your left and right front channels.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-1913-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

HT Labs Measures


Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:

0.1% distortion at 102.3 watts

1% distortion at 117.7 watts


Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:

0.1% distortion at 70.5 watts

1% distortion at 81.7 watts


Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:

0.1% distortion at 52.7 watts

1% distortion at 68.7 watts


Also, some have said that while AVR's might be rated to say - 100 watts per channel, that when played in a 7 speaker configuration, the power drops substantially. If this is the case, would setting all the speakers at 80 instead of the rears free up power to drive the fronts and center's mids and highs? My Receiver is a Denon 1913, rated at 90 watts per channel.


Probably not. You're adjusting the crossover frequency of the speakers, not the power applied to each speaker.

Audyssey sees the speakers at 40 to 60 depending on where I fine tune the placement - usually all at 40. I'm not worried about setting them at 60 in that I'm worried about damage to the speakers, as again I know they're more then capable of handling frequencies in that range, just wondering if 1. I'd be allowing the speakers to have clearer mids and highs if setting the crossover higher, ( 80 ) and 2. whether or not it's advisable to set some to 60 and some to 80 to achieve the best sound. Of course I know it's a matter of perception and what I think sounds best, just thought I'd see what others opinions were.

Thanks for the specs on the AVR, it sounds like it will get me through just fine, at least until next Christmas when I upgrade to something with X32!

Basically I'm trying to find a good balance. I find for music I like the crossovers to be 60 all around, and for movies 80 seems to work a bit better - Pain in the butt to change it all the time though, so If I could get away with setting the fronts and center at 60 and the 4 surrounds at 80 without losing some unknown musical continuity - I will.
 

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I'm not sure with the 1913,but on the Denon 4311 I can customize 2 channel source to be a different crossover setting. For me, I drop crossover to 40Hz. I found that with a lot of music there was little difference, but on the occasional dive into African music the subtleties of acoustic percussion were more pleasing coming from my speaker woofers.


For HT it may be more beneficial to use a higher crossover, but this time around I purchased speakers with a priority on music. They're capable of 30Hz, I see no reason not to utilize them to their fullest.
 

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The T5 speakers start to roll off at around 45-50 hz. They only need "help" at frequencies below 50 Hz, and it is not smart to limit them in any way, especially with the crude low-quality electronic filtering of a receiver.


You should set the Low-Pass Filter ON THE SUBWOOFER to around 50 Hz to avoid overlapping the frequency response of the main speakers.


It should only operate below 50 Hz. No matter what some people say, most subwoofers are not really designed to operate optimally much above 50 Hz. Furthermore, they are MONAURAL sources,which is not desirable at higher frequencies.


You should just set the main speakers to operate full-range, with NO low-frequency limit.


The available total power of the receiver power supply is an issue when running 5 or 7 channels.


Most Denon and Marantz receivers are fairly good in that respect, but there are definitely some others that can deliver more current to the speakers with less distortion.


If you want to upgrade the receiver, IMO one should avoid Yamaha, Pioneer, and Sony like the plague; they are the worst IMO.


The Cambridge Audio 551R would be my first choice, by a mile, because you get a huge power supply and amplifiers from them that are actually designed to run 7 channels properly. As a result the sound quality is excellent.


My second choice would be the Harman-Kardon 3650 or 2650, which are very good also.


Almost all of the other receivers on the market have very inferior amplifiers and power supplies, even in some very expensive models, and simply do not have the current capability to meet the peak demands of your speakers when played fairly loud.


The power ratings of most of the receivers on the are deceptive and ridiculous, and should be ignored.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk  /t/1470109/beating-a-dead-horse-60hz-vs-80hz-crossover-settings#post_23252318


^^^ The dead horse has now officially been whooped.

Not really. Does any one of you run REW to see what your room is really doing and what is the best optimum crossover for your system?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethawk  /t/1470109/beating-a-dead-horse-60hz-vs-80hz-crossover-settings#post_23251685


I'm not sure with the 1913,but on the Denon 4311 I can customize 2 channel source to be a different crossover setting. For me, I drop crossover to 40Hz. I found that with a lot of music there was little difference, but on the occasional dive into African music the subtleties of acoustic percussion were more pleasing coming from my speaker woofers.


For HT it may be more beneficial to use a higher crossover, but this time around I purchased speakers with a priority on music. They're capable of 30Hz, I see no reason not to utilize them to their fullest.

Well I can individually set crossovers, it just means I have to go into the avr setup when switching between movies and music for OPTIMAL sound - does the 4311 pick up on the fact it's a 2 channel source automatically?

Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman  /t/1470109/beating-a-dead-horse-60hz-vs-80hz-crossover-settings#post_23251941


The T5 speakers start to roll off at around 45-50 hz. They only need "help" at frequencies below 50 Hz, and it is not smart to limit them in any way, especially with the crude low-quality electronic filtering of a receiver.


You should set the Low-Pass Filter ON THE SUBWOOFER to around 50 Hz to avoid overlapping the frequency response of the main speakers.


It should only operate below 50 Hz. No matter what some people say, most subwoofers are not really designed to operate optimally much above 50 Hz. Furthermore, they are MONAURAL sources,which is not desirable at higher frequencies.

Yes this does run contrary to common opinion - I'm wondering with respect to the sub low pass filter, if the avr is dictating the frequency at which bass is sent to the sub, wouldn't it not matter if I had the Low pass filter higher? for example, if the receiver is cutting off frequency at say 60hz, and the sub had the knob set to 120, wouldn't only the 60 reach the sub anyways?
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman  /t/1470109/beating-a-dead-horse-60hz-vs-80hz-crossover-settings#post_23251941


You should just set the main speakers to operate full-range, with NO low-frequency limit.

Although I've heard many people espouse this method with respect to two channel music, but with respect to home cinema / gaming, wouldn't I then lose low frequencies designed to for the subwoofer if I did this? if the movie has frequencies below 40hz, as many of them do of course, and my mains are set to Full Range, that would mean that no bass is routed to the subs from the fronts below their low range, so even if the t5's could handle down to 40hz with no problem, everything below would just go *poof* - no?
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman  /t/1470109/beating-a-dead-horse-60hz-vs-80hz-crossover-settings#post_23251941


The available total power of the receiver power supply is an issue when running 5 or 7 channels.


Most Denon and Marantz receivers are fairly good in that respect, but there are definitely some others that can deliver more current to the speakers with less distortion.


If you want to upgrade the receiver, IMO one should avoid Yamaha, Pioneer, and Sony like the plague; they are the worst IMO.




The Cambridge Audio 551R would be my first choice, by a mile, because you get a huge power supply and amplifiers from them that are actually designed to run 7 channels properly. As a result the sound quality is excellent.


My second choice would be the Harman-Kardon 3650 or 2650, which are very good also.


Almost all of the other receivers on the market have very inferior amplifiers and power supplies, even in some very expensive models, and simply do not have the current capability to meet the peak demands of your speakers when played fairly loud.


The power ratings of most of the receivers on the are deceptive and ridiculous, and should be ignored.

Thanks for the suggestions - I'm keeping all my options open with respect to the receiver, and yeah, Yamaha, Pioneer and Sony's are not on my list
I'm liking the look of the Onkyo 818's, and will check out their replacement version coming out soon ( supposed to have Auddesy XT32 ) ... but will audition many more, including my go to Denon's, Anthems, Merantz, and at your suggestion the Cambridge audio
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2  /t/1470109/beating-a-dead-horse-60hz-vs-80hz-crossover-settings#post_23252465




Not really. Does any one of you run REW to see what your room is really doing and what is the best optimum crossover for your system?

I have Auddesy MultiEQ with the Denon, and have relied upon that thus far. I've downloaded REW, and borrowed an old SPL meter from a buddy, and might mess around with it this Sunday, however in the tome like instructions it says that REW is best used with a sound card, and not with the onboard mic input - and after spending 2000 + dollars on replacing my speakers, I'm shying away from spending more money on things I'll only ever use ONCE like a sound card. I'll see what results I get with the onboard audio ( P8z77 V Pro Mboard if that means anything to you
)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman  /t/1470109/beating-a-dead-horse-60hz-vs-80hz-crossover-settings#post_23251941


The T5 speakers start to roll off at around 45-50 hz. They only need "help" at frequencies below 50 Hz, and it is not smart to limit them in any way, especially with the crude low-quality electronic filtering of a receiver.


You should set the Low-Pass Filter ON THE SUBWOOFER to around 50 Hz to avoid overlapping the frequency response of the main speakers.


It should only operate below 50 Hz. No matter what some people say, most subwoofers are not really designed to operate optimally much above 50 Hz. Furthermore, they are MONAURAL sources,which is not desirable at higher frequencies.


You should just set the main speakers to operate full-range, with NO low-frequency limit.


The available total power of the receiver power supply is an issue when running 5 or 7 channels.


Most Denon and Marantz receivers are fairly good in that respect, but there are definitely some others that can deliver more current to the speakers with less distortion.


If you want to upgrade the receiver, IMO one should avoid Yamaha, Pioneer, and Sony like the plague; they are the worst IMO.


The Cambridge Audio 551R would be my first choice, by a mile, because you get a huge power supply and amplifiers from them that are actually designed to run 7 channels properly. As a result the sound quality is excellent.


My second choice would be the Harman-Kardon 3650 or 2650, which are very good also.


Almost all of the other receivers on the market have very inferior amplifiers and power supplies, even in some very expensive models, and simply do not have the current capability to meet the peak demands of your speakers when played fairly loud.


The power ratings of most of the receivers on the are deceptive and ridiculous, and should be ignored.
Just wow!

 

First you say his speakers need help below 50hz, then you suggest running them full range.  And in doing so the subwoofer low pass has no meaning for the mains so why set to 50hz?  This would mean he now loses all 50-120hz content in the LFE channel for movies.

 

To the OP, I'd recommend simply ignoring that entire post.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy  /t/1470109/beating-a-dead-horse-60hz-vs-80hz-crossover-settings#post_23253119


Just wow!


First you say his speakers need help below 50hz, then you suggest running them full range.  And in doing so the subwoofer low pass has no meaning for the mains so why set to 50hz?  This would mean he now loses all 50-120hz content in the LFE channel for movies.


To the OP, I'd recommend simply ignoring that entire post.

Sean:


Eliminate the Denon sub - it was part of a home theater in a box system, and really does not match up well with the Klipsch sub. I betcha if you dump that sub, run audyssey again, things should smooth out. Ideally, if I were you, don't listen to the man behind the curtain about upgrading your receiver. Upgrading your sub will give you more accurate, tighter bass when listening to multichannel music, and good LFE when watching movies. Your speakers deserve a better sub, or two.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by myoda  /t/1470109/beating-a-dead-horse-60hz-vs-80hz-crossover-settings#post_23253367


Sean:


Eliminate the Denon sub - it was part of a home theater in a box system, and really does not match up well with the Klipsch sub. I betcha if you dump that sub, run audyssey again, things should smooth out. Ideally, if I were you, don't listen to the man behind the curtain about upgrading your receiver. Upgrading your sub will give you more accurate, tighter bass when listening to multichannel music, and good LFE when watching movies. Your speakers deserve a better sub, or two.

I'm sure your right, it doesn't sound BAD mind you, but maybe that element that seems a bit amiss is exactly that. I'll look into investing in a matching sub for the klipsch. I'm looking into getting one today in fact..
 

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Your Denon AVR should be able to save your audio settings depending on what signal you have coming into your AVR. You can tell it to go to Stereo mode if it is receiving a native 2.0 stereo signal. You can also set "standard" modes depending on the input currently being used. For example, when I use my PS3 for DVD's and Netflix, it defaults to PLII Cinema. However when it recieves a specific signal such as Dolby Digital, DTS or HD audio, it switches to the most appropriate mode. These AVR's are pretty smart in that regard.


And there should be no problem with setting your Fronts to 60 and your surrounds to 80 for movie content. The Denons are capable of this as well. There is a reason I went with a Denon AVR over the other brands (based on affordability of course)
 
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I have been on this forum for some time now but don't visit or post often.

I will admit I do not have "a lot" of pro experience in HT design and set up other than designing my own (now fairly dated) budget system (and it still needs much improvement), but I do have >13 years in live sound work on stages building and operating sound systems for anything from small events (
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by NuSoardGraphite  /t/1470109/beating-a-dead-horse-60hz-vs-80hz-crossover-settings#post_23253981


Your Denon AVR should be able to save your audio settings depending on what signal you have coming into your AVR. You can tell it to go to Stereo mode if it is receiving a native 2.0 stereo signal. You can also set "standard" modes depending on the input currently being used. For example, when I use my PS3 for DVD's and Netflix, it defaults to PLII Cinema. However when it recieves a specific signal such as Dolby Digital, DTS or HD audio, it switches to the most appropriate mode. These AVR's are pretty smart in that regard.


And there should be no problem with setting your Fronts to 60 and your surrounds to 80 for movie content. The Denons are capable of this as well. There is a reason I went with a Denon AVR over the other brands (based on affordability of course)

Mine does that as well for PS3 - I just am trying to find a happy medium so I don't have to manually switch the crossovers when I switch from music to gaming - so I've found 60 all around sounds best for music, and 80 all around sounds best for movies / games ... I just would like not to have to switch them every time. I'll keep going with the 60 for fronts and center, and 80 for the rest for now .. Perhaps as Myoda suggestions matching my subs properly would give me better results and allow me to settle on a setup that's good for both:)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton  /t/1470109/beating-a-dead-horse-60hz-vs-80hz-crossover-settings#post_23254000


Mine does that as well for PS3 - I just am trying to find a happy medium so I don't have to manually switch the crossovers when I switch from music to gaming - so I've found 60 all around sounds best for music, and 80 all around sounds best for movies / games ... I just would like not to have to switch them every time. I'll keep going with the 60 for fronts and center, and 80 for the rest for now .. Perhaps as Myoda suggestions matching my subs properly would give me better results and allow me to settle on a setup that's good for both:)

You can set up a "Quick Select" function on your remote that with the touch of a single button, will adjust your inputs, sound modes etc to where you want. That way when you put in an Audio CD to play in your PS3 you can switch the functions to Stereo sound mode and enable/disable other options as necessary with only 1 button.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Spamilton  /t/1470109/beating-a-dead-horse-60hz-vs-80hz-crossover-settings#post_23254000


Mine does that as well for PS3 - I just am trying to find a happy medium so I don't have to manually switch the crossovers when I switch from music to gaming - so I've found 60 all around sounds best for music, and 80 all around sounds best for movies / games ... I just would like not to have to switch them every time. I'll keep going with the 60 for fronts and center, and 80 for the rest for now .. Perhaps as Myoda suggestions matching my subs properly would give me better results and allow me to settle on a setup that's good for both:)

I did some reading in the manual and I forgot to mention that you can set the crossovers, distance and pretty much the whole speaker setup differently for your Stereo configuration than for your standard multi-channel config. This can be found under the speaker setup menu I believe. It is suggested over on Batpigs website (you HAVE been there right? Any questions you have on your reciever will likely be answered there. check it out) to set your Stereo config to LFE+Main because sometimes when it detects 2.0 signal, it won't output anything to your sub UNLESS you set it to LFE+Main.


Of course, if you plan on using your front speakers as Full speakers along with your Sub, you want it set to LFE+Main anyway. Using this option, you can set your Crossover for multi-channel content to 80hz if thats what you want, then set it to 60hz for Stereo content and the two different settings will be saved. When you switch it to Stereo setting, it should switch everything for you automatically.
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by NuSoardGraphite  /t/1470109/beating-a-dead-horse-60hz-vs-80hz-crossover-settings#post_23254013


You can set up a "Quick Select" function on your remote that with the touch of a single button, will adjust your inputs, sound modes etc to where you want. That way when you put in an Audio CD to play in your PS3 you can switch the functions to Stereo sound mode and enable/disable other options as necessary with only 1 button.

I'll certainly look into this, but there's no way I could set a quick select button to actually change crossover frequencies - i.e. button a sets all at 80 and b sets all at 60... The Denon remote is prettty dumbed down and basic for the 1913 - I assume you mean override another button I'm not using, such as Aux, and assign it only in " 2 channel stereo mode " somehow..
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audioguy78  /t/1470109/beating-a-dead-horse-60hz-vs-80hz-crossover-settings#post_23253993


I have been on this forum for some time now but don't visit or post often.

I will admit I do not have "a lot" of pro experience in HT design and set up other than designing my own (now fairly dated) budget system (and it still needs much improvement), but I do have >13 years in live sound work on stages building and operating sound systems for anything from small events (
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by NuSoardGraphite  /t/1470109/beating-a-dead-horse-60hz-vs-80hz-crossover-settings#post_23254054


I did some reading in the manual and I forgot to mention that you can set the crossovers, distance and pretty much the whole speaker setup differently for your Stereo configuration than for your standard multi-channel config. This can be found under the speaker setup menu I believe. It is suggested over on Batpigs website (you HAVE been there right? Any questions you have on your reciever will likely be answered there. check it out) to set your Stereo config to LFE+Main because sometimes when it detects 2.0 signal, it won't output anything to your sub UNLESS you set it to LFE+Main.


Of course, if you plan on using your front speakers as Full speakers along with your Sub, you want it set to LFE+Main anyway. Using this option, you can set your Crossover for multi-channel content to 80hz if thats what you want, then set it to 60hz for Stereo content and the two different settings will be saved. When you switch it to Stereo setting, it should switch everything for you automatically.

I have been through Batpigs website several times - " Denon Manuals in plain English " .. but will go through it again. I think my original subject is getting convoluted though, I'm not worried about having the amp switch to 2 channel only mode instead of automatically defaulting to PLIIX - and can easily change it to multi channel surround in my music / media player ( XBMC ) ... I was originally interested concerned about the logic of having multiple cutoff frequencies while listening to music, basically worried that the lack of LFE continuity between speakers would be somehow a detriment to the source ( be it stereo, or pliix or multichannel ). Basically I was trying to make sure there was no problem with having one speaker set to 80 while others were set to 60 at the same time...
 
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