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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have the PanasonicPT56WXF95 with the firewire stb hooked up to the panny hd recorder. Would it be feasible to record programs that have 5c encryption and play them later - or would the recorded program contain the same encryption signals making it impossible to playback through the component inputs on the set?
 

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The new scheme has authentication algoritms that will block anything from even coming out of your stb's firewire output


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Alex
 

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There is however speculation that the older non-updated DSTU50's will simply ignore 5C. Though never proven it is said that any DSTU50 sent in for service get new 5C capable software.


My professional experience with communication protocols makes me believe this is true. Protocols are typically built in layers. The first release has the basics. Future enhancements are deeper or "upper" layers. The scenerio could be as follows:


The 5C information is not part of the base stream it is put in some reserved but not initially defined space within the protocol. A 5C capable receiver always looks at this data to see what it can do, nothing, one record, multiple records, etc. An older unit or software would lack the programming to look at this 5C information before initializing the decoder. In other words it bypasses it because it doesn't know it's there in the first place.


Whie this is purely my speculation and the old 50 may indeed shut down completly when 5C is transmitted, I think based on my knowledge it will simply go on working.


Remmeber we are talking about the ATSC standard here. They can't modify the base stream in any way. But they can add enhancements.
 

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But if the stream is encrypted, how is the Panny going to decrypt the data if it doesn't have the 5C circuitry? I would think that it wouldn't be able to output anything.


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Vic Ruiz
STOP HDCP/DFAST/5C
 

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You're right if that's the case. They could encrypt the stream with the keys embedded in the stream.


But if it's the same as previous protection systems, it's just a few codes that instruct the receiver what it can do and can't.


Example the copy prevention in digital audio is very easy to break. It's a single bit that is set or not to allow a DAT recorder will accept the stream. That bit can be set off either with a simple hardware box fabricated with off the shelf chip sets or the file could be parsed through a computer to re-format it.


I do agree that 5C is probably a bit more complex since it's newer technology.
 

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For more info about how each device works in the new scheme, check out the following .PDF document... especially page 19 "Authentication and Key Exchange" and page 21 with the chart titled "DTCP example":
http://www.dtcp.com/data/dtcp_tut.pdf


This is not like previous copy protection methods. The content providers will control every link in the chain right out to the display device... which is why you'll need a brand new display device (or "DTCP sink" in Intel's terminology) to watch premium content HDTV movies.


They can do random challenges, and download new keys and software to every device in the chain at any point in time. They can also remotely "revoke" any device in the chain that doesn't give the right secret password response. Bang, you're dead.


A failed challenge doesn't mean the device will explode or quit working. It just falls back to 480p resolution... as far as I can tell... but I may be wrong. Maybe there really will be exploding chips in the new technology!
 

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Regarding what will and what won't happen with 5C - at least as far as cable systems are concerned - read the attached interview from today's HDTV Magazine.


KC


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Mr. Broberg:


The 5C controls only the IEEE1394 fire wire connections. It is a

compressed signal. The idea of having the studio have control of the

content is totally absurd in the cable system. It can't happen, The

operator marks the content and only marks it if the operator has

negotiated with the content providers something favorable enough to give

him reason to mark it.


Copy protection is a tool that program users have to negotiate with the

content providers (movie studios). "What are you going to give me that I

was not getting before if I use this tool (copy protection)?"


What the operators want to get is either: 1) lower prices on the

content, or 2) they want to get earlier releases.


If they are not getting either, they are not going to mark the content

with copy protection.


There is a side deal with broadcasters to include water marking

technology, which supposedly tells the system that is it not to be sent

over the Internet.


Some people mix that up with copy protection commands in the cable

system. This idea of water marking to protect content over the Internet

at this stage means nothing to any receiving device unless it is

voluntarily built to respect that mark. There is no legislation that

requires any receiver to observe it. It doesn't mean they might not try

for legislation, but currently there is no requirement to observe those

things.


Within a cable system, the operator specifies what the set top box has

to respond to. That is done in such a way that it only responds to those

proprietary methods that are sent from the head-end of the cable system.

It is not designed to respond to anything embedded into the video itself.


Hollywood, of course, thinks that the studios should have control over

what is set, and bypass the ability of the operators. That stands to

reason since that takes away the negotiating ability that the operators

now have.


There are two sides of the coin. The MPAA and company want to have

absolute control over how content is marked so the operators have no

ability to negotiate. On the other side the cable operators have the

technology defined in such a way that it only responds to their commands

anyway. So, cable has absolute control over what is set (the copy

protection levels), and we are not going to set it unless the studios

give us something. They either give it to us for less money, because it

is worth less to a consumer who cannot copy it, or you give us an

earlier release date - an earlier window - so we can beat the

'Blockbusters'. Those are the only two things operators want.


They (cable operators) have to install a great deal of infrastructure -

go to a lot of expense - to control this content. They are not going to

do that unless they are getting something in return.
 

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5c is already incorporated in the PV-HD1000 VCR; check the manual.


It is confirmed that 5c copy once encoded videotapes cannot be duplicated using two PV-HD1000s or other D-VHS VCRs.


Front panel displays CP for copy protection engaged and the VCRs stop automatically.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
If the Panny recorder is 5c "endowed", theoretically, could I record a encrypted movie using the STB and firewire connection to the recorder - and then play that movie back on my RPTV even if my RPTV does not have a firewire connection? The HD movies I record with the 1000 are played back through the STB back to the RPTV that has component inputs.


The idea is that although I would not be able to watch the movie directly - I could record it and then watch it.
 

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No, once the industry gets this system online and starts protecting the "premium content", then you won't be able to watch that particular HDTV material on your current RPTV.


It doesn't matter if your Panasonic recorder is a compliant device. The display also has to be able to do the proper challenge/response and key sharing, before you'll see a full-res picture. You will be able to watch the recorded HDTV in down-res'd 480p resolution. That's the fallback, for displays that are "revoked" because they fail the test.


Note: this only applies to premium content (movies), and it's unclear whether it will affect things like HDTV sports. It's almost certain that OTA HDTV won't be encrypted.


To KC:


What is the date of that interview with Mr. Broberg? It sounds like it pre-dates the industry announcements of the last week or two. For example:
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/010725/0322.html


He's also talking as if cable exists in a vacuum, and they control the content. In fact, they’re in competition with satellite systems, possible future Internet distribution schemes, and the local movie rental stores. The customer base will go where the desirable content is.


The HDTV industry has a bootstrapping problem. The content providers and network carriers need more consumers to buy HDTV hardware, but the consumers don’t see the point (AVSFORUM members excepted) because there simply isn’t much desirable HDTV content right now. The last thing I want to see is a 4-minute block of commercials on a game show in HDTV. I want to see movies and high-value programming.


It isn't just compression problems and bandwidth holding up the wider distribution of HDTV. The studios have been reluctant to open the floodgates on back catalog and recent release movies in high-def, without an ironclad protection scheme in place. They have that now, and the carriers are scrambling to get this new system in place so they can start delivering more HDTV movies.


Satellite/cable providers and display manufacturers also want this to happen because they can reduce costs (and get HDTV hardware into more homes) by knocking the expensive D/A-A/D converters out of the hardware. I think manufacturing economics are going to drive this upgrade cycle, as much as anything else.
 
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