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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I know this is more of an american forum, but however it is an excellent place to discuss hd pq.


I also know some americans did have bell as well for hd.


In the canadian forums on other websites we are simply at a loss for what can be done.


Im curious does any providers in america offer low resolution of 720p for all hd channels?


To make things worse for us bell is apperantly using variable bitrates.


" Bell has claimed to be be using a variable bit rate algorithm that they claim assigns bits to each channel as needed. In other words it isn't a fixed rate for any one channel at any one time. Although it may work all it really does is confuse the issue so that regardless of which side you are on in this debate getting at the truth concerning PQ using bit rates alone is impossible. An extermely frustrating situation for all regradless of which side of the debate you are on."


Im curious since I know many people complain about hd lite in america and the quality they receive have you guys been able to accomplish anything to improve your provider.


Clearly we have a more uphill battle. I would simply switch, I had shaw cable for a day hd is broadcast at 1080i for all channels. It was stunning! However the user interface guide looked like it was created in 1990 and a severe lack of channels, even basic offerings.


Then theirs shaw direct or starchoice as another alternative they also broadcast in 1080i, unfortunately they have equipment that does not work. PVr's that dont record programs, alot of people with starchoice/shaw satellite have said they have given up on a pvr, yes im shocked when i hear how amazed star choice users are when they switch, about how great a pvr is. Not something im willing to concede, nor should I have to.


So many of us are stuck with bell, but our complaints and trying to get them to understand our issues with pq fall on deaf ears. I quit my bell in protest for a couple months to see if it helped. But it did not, the customer retention team did not even understand they broadcast everything in 720p, they told me to just turn the receiver to 1080i and i will have 1080i.
 

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I was not aware that any cable channels transmit an HD channel in any other resolution then the one they receive it at since the required bandwidth is almost the same. Their digtial receiver STBs do however have the abilitly to rescale what they receive. In fact with my Motorola cable company PVR STB I have to select if I want all 16:9 aspect ratio programs sent to my TV at 1080i or at 720p. I use 1080i with my new 1080p HDTV and I used 720p when I had a 720p HDTV.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
It is pretty commen knowledge in the canadian digital forum and even if you do a search on here, they retransmit (dont know if thats proper term) everything into 720p.


Doesnt direct convert their channels to a lower resolutoon as well.



But yes everything is 720 and it really was evident when i had shaw cable here, well I still have it but i unhooked it. Literally night and day difference in sharpness on my 1080p projector.


You guys who complain about direct and dish network would have a field day with bell. Seriously im not even joking alot of hd channels look like dvd.


Shaw for instance retransmits everything in 1080i. Some shaw users actually complain about them using 1080i for 720p channels. I understand the desire for native format in theory, but shaw upscaling im guessing is better then what peoples tv's and set top boxes would do. Unless large cable companies have poor upscaling equipment, i would just assume its better then consumer.


Sadly in canada i think to many farmers, ranchers, whoever else purchases bell has no idea or cares about pq. ALthough their are hundreds of complaints on canadian forums from people who do care.


The crtc regulatory body here in canada will stop foreign channels from entering in canada, but they wont regulate acceptable hd quality standards.
 

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There is absolutlly no technical or financial reason to for any provider to downscale 1080i/60(30 1080p frames per second) content to 720p/60 content since the bandwidth required is the same and no customer in the US would accept having all of his 1920x1080 resolution programing downsscled to 1280x720 when watched on his 1080P HDTV.

As I said before the user has the choice when setting up his cable STB to have content scaled or not.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Yes Im aware of the scaling, but it makes no sense when bell transmits everything in 720p, i have no idea why. I will get you a link which might explain it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Here is a few highlights of the thread im sure most of you dont really care what were dealing with, but here is a few good peices of info from that thread.


And as walford mention it makes no sense to convert it to 720p, yet bell does.


"

I have noticed a distinct reduction in image quality over the past 6 or so months on my ExpressVu HD channels. The biggest problem is how there are now TONS of deinterlacing errors showing up.


Due to this, I decided to examine the transport streams and discovered that absolutely everything (I get) seems to now be running at 720p, while previously "some" of the channels had been 1080i. Searching the web I came upon this thread.


I watch all of my HD content on my native 1080i rear projection HDTV and 1080i DOES look much better than 720p, not to mention the fact that there are now tons of deinterlacing errors in how Bell does their own 1080i to 720p transcoding.


What I don't understand is why would they switch to 720p?


The bandwidth requirements for 720p are roughly 1280x720x24bitsx60fps=1.3Gbps

The bandwidth requirements for 1080i are roughly 1920x1080x24bitsx30fps=1.5Gbps


Once you add highly optimised lossy mpeg-2 compression, I would expect the true bandwidth requirements would be very close. "


However one of the forum mods holds a different opinion.







"BTV have quite a few (70+) HD stations, so a 10-20% difference may seem insignificant to you, however, it is huge for them in terms of bandwidth requirements. They are currently still short of bandwidth, hence the need for 720P and bitrates as low as 10 mbps (sometimes marginally lower)"


Another post on the situation


"As has been confirmed by Jason Sokoloski, Director of Broadcast Operations, BEV on their forum, BEV does the re-encoding.


If you take out the PR marketting mumbo-jumbo out of the press releases like these
http://vutechinfo.ca/vuforum/viewtopic.php?t=146 and 18 months ago
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/show...ews#post439868

that only BEV fans can believe in, it boils down to:


"We do everything to maximize profit.

Your - customer's - opinion is important only as long as it help that goal.

If it doesn't - we couldn't care less what you think."


And one of my favorites where cbs explains what bell is doing to our hd.


This is CBS response:


"Juan,




I’m afraid I won’t be able to improve the picture quality of WBZ-HD for you, as that is controlled by Bell ExpressVu. They are picking up our off-air signal in the Boston area and manipulating it in whatever way they wish. We do not, unfortunately, have any control over what they are doing.




As with the Buffalo station, we are transmitting at 1080i with no sub-channels or datacasting signals, so the full 19.39 mb bandwidth is available for picture and sound (about 18 mb is available for the picture, the rest for sound, PSIP and other data tables. This is the standard configuration for a single channel feed.). OTA our signal should look identical to Buffalo’s.



Best regards,"



Any advice how we can get this changed, i know their is uphill battles with hd on directv and dish but we are running out of options, 3 years later and its only getting worse.


Theirs only one other satellite provider which has great hd, but starchoice uses dvi yet, their hd pvr boxes are a nightmare from everyone i spoke to. HDCP issues galore. Promised firmware upgrades are years behind.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford /forum/post/18286827


There is absolutlly no technical or financial reason to for any provider to downscale 1080i/60(30 1080p frames per second) content to 720p/60...

Sure there is, if bandwidth is scarce.


1080i uses ~12% more bandwidth than 720p.


What Murilo has described is correct. What Bell TV (ex-Express Vu) is doing is well known, and is the source of many disatisified subscribers. Unfortunately I don't believe there is much chance of them changing policy on this matter.
 
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