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I have the option of getting an APC J Type 1.5kVA Power Conditioner with Battery Backup (Product # J15BLK ) for about $320 even though its listed at $470 at Amazon.



Right now I have a plasma with a 5.1 setup but plan to upgrade to a projector with 7.1 in the next year. Is this something that I should consider getting or is it not worth it?
 

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You do not mention where you live, but I live in Houston and my J15 kicks-in nearly every day (not the UPS function, which is more like once a week even if it is just for a few seconds).


I bought my J15 (for a lot more than the price you are seeing) about 3 1/2 years ago and it sees nearly daily use. I had two primary reasons for buying an UPS; 1) DLP TV so I wanted to be able to cool down the lamp (not an issue for you now but maybe for the projector assuming you can get UPS power to its location), and 2) I did not want my DTV DVR to go into reset everytime there was a power outage or surge. If you have DTV you know how long it takes to get its receiver back online after any power problem.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by poldim /forum/post/19638758


I have the option of getting an APC J Type 1.5kVA Power Conditioner with Battery Backup

Latest trend is to put a power strip surge protector circuit inside a fancy box. Call it a line conditioner. And charge $hundreds for it.


At what point do you read what is relevant - manufacturer numeric specs? What does it really do? Any answer without numbers is traditionally junk science. Why do miracle boxes will make amplifiers magically sound better. Because the miracle box costs more?


Learn basic knowledge. Most who recommend never do. Learn what your power supply does. First is a serious filter that does more than most line conditioners. Then that filtered AC power is converted to well over 300 volts DC. Then filtered again. Then converted to high voltage radio waves. Then filtered through galvanic isolation. Then converted to high current DC. Then filtered again. The most minimum supply does all that. Better supplies do more. Show me any line conditioner that does anywhere near this much. And good luck.


Most eyes glaze over as soon as numbers arrive. Learning facts before posting is hard. Many will post feelings. And call that a fact. Show me a line conditioner that does more than every power supply? That means hard facts with numbers. And ignoring any posts that do not provide or demand numbers. Ignore hearsay and subjective magazine reviews. Go read manufacturer numeric specs.


Read those APC specs. It is a $60 UPS in an expensive looking box. When will AC power be 'dirtiest'? When that UPS is in battery backup mode. Fortunately your power supply has all that filtering (see above). Then 'dirtiest' power from that UPS causes no problem. For example, this equivalent 120 volt UPS outputs spikes up to 270 volts between 200 volt square waves. That is called a 120 volt sine wave in the sales brochure.


It is called a line conditioner. So it must do something? Buy a $60 UPS to have a similar battery backup function. Get an Avery stick-on label. Write "power conditioner" on that label. Have same power conditioner while saving $100+. Go read its spec numbers. Ignore hearsay posted without numbers.
 

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Quote:
Learn basic knowledge. Most who recommend never do. Learn what your power supply does. First is a serious filter that does more than most line conditioners. Then that filtered AC power is converted to well over 300 volts DC. Then filtered again. Then converted to high voltage radio waves. Then filtered through galvanic isolation. Then converted to high current DC. Then filtered again. The most minimum supply does all that. Better supplies do more. Show me any line conditioner that does anywhere near this much. And good luck.

Your attempt at describing a Switched mode power supply was terrible.
 

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You only need UPS for projector when you have often blackouts. It will keep light bulb from thermal shock, when power is lost.


If you really want power isolation, buy APC Smart series UPS. It completely isolates you from power source. But they are not cheap, and it is for a reason.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 /forum/post/19648111


If you really want power isolation, buy APC Smart series UPS. It completely isolates you from power source.

No it does not. If it did, then you posted the manufacturer spec number that says so. No number posted because the manufacturer does not make that claim.


Described in a 'how a switching power supply works' summary is isolation equal or superior to what any UPS might do. Power supplies already do isolation rated at thousands of volts. But if you learned that, then sales would be hurt. Important it to have a majority educated by advertising. And not by basic electrical knowledge.


Most UPSes connect a computer directly to AC mains. And also have a wire that completely bypasses that isolation. The UPS does not do and does not claim to do that protection. If it did, the responsible poster also posted the numbers that say so. Good luck. No such numbers exist because a UPS does not do nor does it claim to do that hardware protection.


Anything a UPS would do to protect hardware is already done better inside the power supply. As was true even with a supply inside the original IBM PC.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by westom /forum/post/19649065


No it does not. If it did, then you posted the manufacturer spec number that says so. No number posted because the manufacturer does not make that claim.


Described in a 'how a switching power supply works' summary is isolation equal or superior to what any UPS might do. Power supplies already do isolation rated at thousands of volts. But if you learned that, then sales would be hurt. Important it to have a majority educated by advertising. And not by basic electrical knowledge.


Most UPSes connect a computer directly to AC mains. And also have a wire that completely bypasses that isolation. The UPS does not do and does not claim to do that protection. If it did, the responsible poster also posted the numbers that say so. Good luck. No such numbers exist because a UPS does not do nor does it claim to do that hardware protection.


Anything a UPS would do to protect hardware is already done better inside the power supply. As was true even with a supply inside the original IBM PC.

What you describe is line interactive UPS. APC Smart units are on-line double conversion devices. They convert main AC into DC, buffer it with the battery and then convert back to AC. This way they completely isolate load from line source. They are used where you need to keep line wave form close to pure sine, and can't skip even one cycle of it.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 /forum/post/19649088


What you describe is line interactive UPS. APC Smart units are on-line double conversion devices. They convert main AC into DC, buffer it with the battery and then convert back to AC.

You are assuming consumers are spending $1000 and more for a UPS. Described was how most every APC UPS works.


Also described is the wire that completely bypasses even the double conversion UPS. Things destructive use that wire to completely compromise UPS protection. And finally, what that double conversion UPS does is already inside the power supply.


All electronics already contain serious protection. This 120 volt UPS outputs 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. Due to protection already inside all electronics, that 270 volts, et al is also called ideal power.


BTW, this 200 volt square wave output is also described by the manufacturer as a sine wave. From concepts taught in high school math, they are not lying.


Anything adjacent to electronics is ineffective. That 'solution' is already inside the appliance. An informed homeowner, instead, spends about $1 per appliance so that protection inside every appliance is not overwhelmed. That solution is always located distant from electronics and within feet of single point earth ground. Separation means the protection is even better. Reasons why are found in concepts taught to first semester engineers. And rarely known by anyone recommending a UPS.


If a UPS really did protection as claimed, then you are also quoting each relevant specification number. And stating why that number is significant. You do not for one simple reason. Even APC does not claim what you have posted. Even the dirtiest electricity from a UPS in battery backup mode is ideal perfect power to computers - because computers already contain superior protection.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 /forum/post/19648111


YIt will keep light bulb from thermal shock....

Hmmm...


The bulb isn't going to get any hotter than it already is when the power goes off. Lack of a fan will cause it to cool slower. Where is the thermal shock? The bulb is being annealed. It is less likely to shatter than with the fan.


The main reason for running the fan after the power off button is pushed appears to be to get the bulb to a safe condition for transport because these projectors are portable. The bulbs are very fragile when hot. But if you are not going to move it, there is no need for the fan.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colm /forum/post/19650184


Hmmm...


The bulb isn't going to get any hotter than it already is when the power goes off. Lack of a fan will cause it to cool slower. Where is the thermal shock? The bulb is being annealed. It is less likely to shatter than with the fan.


The main reason for running the fan after the power off button is pushed appears to be to get the bulb to a safe condition for transport because these projectors are portable. The bulbs are very fragile when hot. But if you are not going to move it, there is no need for the fan.

I'm having one of those moments where the mind is with you but the body is unwilling to jump. It makes perfect sense that the more slowly you allow it to cool the more annealed the glass would become however I still don't trust it in my bones... for lack of a better term.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colm
Hmmm...


The bulb isn't going to get any hotter than it already is when the power goes off. Lack of a fan will cause it to cool slower. Where is the thermal shock? The bulb is being annealed. It is less likely to shatter than with the fan.


The main reason for running the fan after the power off button is pushed appears to be to get the bulb to a safe condition for transport because these projectors are portable. The bulbs are very fragile when hot. But if you are not going to move it, there is no need for the fan.
Hot bulb has significant thermal capacity and thermal resistance. When you actively cool it down, it is much cooler outside, that inside. As soon as fan stops, bulb gets hotter outside. That may cause thermal shock for it and also for everything around it. To avoid this condition fan is blowing for some time after your turn projector off.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer /forum/post/19640501


Unless you have a specific problem with AC power such as interference when the fridge kicks in etc, a "power" product will not improve anything.


--Ethan

Ethan,

Do you maintain the same opinion wrt balanced power? My experience is consistent with a balanced power approach, and the inherent qualities it brings, being a step in the right direction in nearly all situations. Also, I've experimented with isolation between components to some success as well.


IMO, it's a very nice DIY project, be it either global isolation, or inter-isolation.


Your thoughts?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH /forum/post/19651743


Do you maintain the same opinion wrt balanced power?

I don't have any direct experience with balanced power, but my understanding is the only benefit is a potential to reduce hum caused by ground loops. Since none of the gear in my home recording studio and home theater has a hum problem, I never looked further.


I am skeptical of claims that balanced power can reduce the broadband noise floor, but I'll always consider hard evidence to the contrary. Not a zoomed-in scope display of the noise riding on the power line before and after, as is commonly used to sell such products. Rather, I need to see the noise at the output of the audio gear with and without. And I'm highly skeptical of the common claim that "power" products can increase fullness and clarity, or enhance imaging, etc.


--Ethan
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colm /forum/post/19650184


Hmmm...


The bulb isn't going to get any hotter than it already is when the power goes off. Lack of a fan will cause it to cool slower. Where is the thermal shock? The bulb is being annealed. It is less likely to shatter than with the fan.


The main reason for running the fan after the power off button is pushed appears to be to get the bulb to a safe condition for transport because these projectors are portable. The bulbs are very fragile when hot. But if you are not going to move it, there is no need for the fan.

Another reason is that turning the lamp back on when it is hot is very bad. The forced cooling cycle allows you to turn the PJ back on more quickly (versus waiting 10+ minutes for the bulb to cool). If power goes out, just let the PJ sit for 20-30 minutes and then fire it back up.


westom, I had a Tivo that crashed about once a week despite no other observable power problems in the house. After installing a UPS with line regulation (no fancy brands, just a used Telco unit) the Tivo had zero problems. How do you explain this? You seem to imply that all electronics use a switched mode supply which is definitely not the case. The shoddy engineering in my Tivo's PS definitely benefited from a stable line voltage.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran /forum/post/19641118


I have never heard a sonic benefit at all, but you do get a benefit from insurance claims if lightning strikes....

Most likely after the home owners insurance is used first. I wonder how easy it is to get them to fulfill the warranty without all sorts of conditions and proofs.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg_R /forum/post/19654931


westom, I had a Tivo that crashed about once a week despite no other observable power problems in the house. How do you explain this? You seem to imply that all electronics use a switched mode supply which is definitely not the case.

Good luck finding electronics that do not have a switching power supply. First, even units that use the single chip (linear) power supply are still powered by a switching power supply. Using only a linear supply means galvanic isolation that, just by itself, costs an additional $10, $30, or $50. That part alone can cost as much as a whole switching supply.


Second, industry standards such as CEC, KEMCO, Energy Star, AGO, GEEA, EU Code of Conduct, CSC, etc are not met by a linear supply.


The purpose of both points. You were speculating without first learning facts. And a warning to all others why so many myths are so routinely promoted. This example demonstates how many know without first learning, for example, why linear supplies cannot meet all those international standards.


Since critically important facts were not available, then nobody can answer your question. Answers will only be as useful as the facts you provide. Reasons for that instability are just too numerous. Typically, others who solved your problem with a UPS were actually curing symptoms. In some cases, because a computer assembler bought a supply only on dollar and watts. Bought a $100 UPS to solve a problem created by saving $10 on an inferior supply.


We know that the UPS, when not in battery backup mode, connects your Tivo directly to AC mains. Without additional facts, nobody can provide useful knowledge. Your Tivo supply typically would be sufficient. Implying your's had a unique defect.


So, do you still have and have opened that Tivo? Is the supply from Wan Nien? A fact useful to others who have a same supply and may have a same potential failure. After all, the only reasons for posting are to inform others. Share pertinent information.


You are helping others to learn that switching supplies must be so superior as to even make 'dirtiest' power created by a UPS irrelevant. A fact because a switching power supply does layers of 'cleaning' while a UPS (not in battery backup mode) connects a Tivo directly to AC mains as if the UPS were not there.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by westom /forum/post/19656078


Good luck finding electronics that do not have a switching power supply. First, even units that use the single chip (linear) power supply are still powered by a switching power supply.

Not sure where you come up with but its incorrect. There are many, many electronic devices that in no way shape or form use a switching supply. There are of course many systems that do use switching supplies as well. Almost all the certifications you listed in no way disallow linear regulation, in fact linear regulation can be more efficient than switching supplies depending on the load characteristics and input/output voltage ratios.


I also have no idea why you think that a switching supply has inherently better isolation than a linear supply. Isolation has nothing to do with the amount of filters or transforms that occur, its a completely separate issue. In both cases the only isolation provided is a result of a transformer in the design. There are many ways to produce a switching supply, your description is only remotely correct for a small subset of switching topologies which i don't often see in audio electronics outside of very low power devices. More common is a step down transformer on the input, basic rectification and non isolated switching or linear regulators to supply the various rails.


The real advantage to the topologies you described is that a high frequency transformer is smaller/lighter/cheaper than a low frequency transformer (50/60hz). However this advantage begins to disappear as current increases because power needs dominate the minimum size of the transformer. A 1A transformer designed for operation at 400khz-2mhz is smaller cheaper and lighter than one designed to operate at 60hz. The same isn't true at 10A. As a result the topologies you describe (flyback, forward and push-pull primarily) are mostly used in low power applications. Cell phones chargers, low power laptop supplies, etc.
 
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