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#### stanger89

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Lebowski /forum/post/15942661

Exactly, but now you have situation where you have measured your values WITHOUT CCA and when you enter these values you have CCA ON. Only place where you can have CCA off is in the service menu.

That doesn't matter, beyond it would be nice to not have to go into the SM to obtain measured values.

Quote:
I don't understand what use it is to do it like that. I'd rather enter there (measured fields) CCA ON measured values, so that you have real baseline for your enviroment.

CCA works by remapping every input color to a different output color, it needs to know where to start and where to end to know how much to change. Think of it like this say we've got desired primaries like this:

Desired

Blue 10, 10

Red 100, 10

Green 10, 100

But your light engine is off due to variations/impurities in the filters:
Native

Blue 5,5

Red 105,5

Green 5,105

Say the factory already did some correction resulting in a projector that actually did this:
Factory

Blue 7,7

Red 103,7

Green 7,103

So, if you measure without disabling CCA, you'll get measured values that match the factory values, so now you punch in the desired values into the CCA and it calculates the correction:
Factory Correction

Blue +3,+3

Red -3,+3

Green +3,-3

This correction would result in the following:
Corrected Factory

Blue 8,8

Red 102,8

Green 8,102

Notice how it's off because the starting position is wrong (the CCA algorithm assumes the change it calculates is from the light engine's native). Of course you could go through an iterative process of entering "incorrect" desired values and get to the right place eventually.

Now if you were to disable CCA, your measurements would match the Native values, when you punch the info into the CCA you'd get the following corrections:
Native Correction

Blue +5,+5

Red -5,+5

Green +5,-5

Resulting in the following:
Corrected Native

Blue 10,10

Red 100, 10

Green 10,100

Which is spot on what it's supposed to be. Now obviously the real equations/corrections are more complicated because the correction would have to vary based on the input signal. And also it appears that there are limitations/errors in the CCA algorithm making so it harder.

But by not measuring the "measured" values with CCA off, you've got the possibility that you'll make things worse, since the correction will likely come out to be much smaller, since it's presumably already partially corrected at the factory.

#### JohnBrown

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bub /forum/post/15943596

You win because you were able to say the same thing with less words. About the Measured Values still being held in the CCA (you must be talking about the ISF/CCA), I am going to watch the NASCAR race here in a bit and I will check then.

George

No, you win because you wrote more words in less time!

Correct, it's the ISF/CCA full data I was talking about. I too am about to watch a movie, so see you later!

#### GGB

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Just done another calibration and have managed to get a dE value of around 1 for each primary and secondary except for green, blue and cyan.

The green co-ordinate just doesn't seem to reach according to the CIE chart, luminace is close but it just doesn't seem to be enough.

When I move the x co-ordinate closer the y co-ordinate gets pushed further way or vice versa. Same with the blue. I can have the correct x or y co-ordinate but not both. Y is correct for primary to.

I am using 100% color fields and my ftL output on 100% white is 10ftL. Maybe I don't have enough light hitting the probe?

I am using Eyeone LT, HCFR and AVSRec709 with a 1.0 gain screen.

Any ideas?

#### stanger89

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Are you measuring that off the screen or through the diffuser (pointed at the PJ)?

#### limulus

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I have a W5000 coming to replace my old BenQ7800. I've read that the W5000 is very good out of the box and really only required some minor adjustments. Are you guys looking for perfection or is the W5000 really not that good out of the box? My first projector was a CRT and I quickly tired of tweaking and that's why I changed to DLP several years ago.

#### GGB

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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 /forum/post/15944471

Are you measuring that off the screen or through the diffuser (pointed at the PJ)?

Hello stanger89, thanks for the reply, I am pointing it at the screen without the diffuser on.

Thanks.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by limulus /forum/post/15944591

I have a W5000 coming to replace my old BenQ7800. I've read that the W5000 is very good out of the box and really only required some minor adjustments. Are you guys looking for perfection or is the W5000 really not that good out of the box? My first projector was a CRT and I quickly tired of tweaking and that's why I changed to DLP several years ago.

No worries, actually W5000 is very good after just basic adjustments. It's just that it has such an array of tweaking features, that it begs for proper calibration.

#### limulus

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Headroom /forum/post/15944701

No worries, actually W5000 is very good after just basic adjustments. It's just that it has such an array of tweaking features, that it begs for proper calibration.

Ahh, understood. Perhaps I should disable some of those controls so I don't make a mess of things

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Quote:
Originally Posted by limulus /forum/post/15944737

Ahh, understood. Perhaps I should disable some of those controls so I don't make a mess of things

No need for that mate. The tweaks we're talking about in these last posts, are actually hidden within ISF and Factory menus, which need "secret" codes to unlock.

#### bub

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GGB /forum/post/15944406

Just done another calibration and have managed to get a dE value of around 1 for each primary and secondary except for green, blue and cyan.

The green co-ordinate just doesn't seem to reach according to the CIE chart, luminace is close but it just doesn't seem to be enough.

When I move the x co-ordinate closer the y co-ordinate gets pushed further way or vice versa. Same with the blue. I can have the correct x or y co-ordinate but not both. Y is correct for primary to.

I am using 100% color fields and my ftL output on 100% white is 10ftL. Maybe I don't have enough light hitting the probe?

I am using Eyeone LT, HCFR and AVSRec709 with a 1.0 gain screen.

Any ideas?

That is very strange as my experience with calibrating the color space is very straightforward. There is a little bit of movement in 'y' while adjusting for 'x', but very little and certainly not enough to prevent me from moving 'x' to where I want it to be AND moving 'y' where I want it to be as well. My CIE Diagram is spot on after calibration.

Are you looking at the numbers or the CIE Diagram while making your adjustments?

George

#### GGB

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bub /forum/post/15944925

That is very strange as my experience with calibrating the color space is very straightforward. There is a little bit of movement in 'y' while adjusting for 'x', but very little and certainly not enough to prevent me from moving 'x' to where I want it to be AND moving 'y' where I want it to be as well. My CIE Diagram is spot on after calibration.

Are you looking at the numbers or the CIE Diagram while making your adjustments?

George

Hello Bub, using both really but paying most attention to the numbers than the CIE. I am wondering if theres not enough light hitting the Eyeone. If I open up the iris to 19 it seems to move green a bit closer to the co-ordinate on the CIE diagram.

Thing is I don't want the iris that far open.

After reading Stangers post earlier maybe I should point the eyeone at the projector with the diffusor on?

Thanks.

#### SteveMo

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I think that my projector will be going above my rear subwoofer (one of four) on a shelf and I was wondering if anyone knew how sensitive these projectors will be to low frequencies and if it can harm them? Has anyone had problems with them rattling or being harmed from low frequencies? Thank you.

edit: I'm going to go ahead and order a ceiling mount instead.

#### bub

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GGB /forum/post/15944982

Hello Bub, using both really but paying most attention to the numbers than the CIE. I am wondering if theres not enough light hitting the Eyeone. If I open up the iris to 19 it seems to move green a bit closer to the co-ordinate on the CIE diagram.

Thing is I don't want the iris that far open.

After reading Stangers post earlier maybe I should point the eyeone at the projector with the diffusor on?

Thanks.

I don't think that is your problem GGB. 10FtL is quite respectable after calibration and a semi-light controlled room. I wouldn't open your iris for calibrations if you aren't going to leave it open for viewing. As you already discovered, opening the iris affects your calibrations somewhat.

If you look back a page or so in this thread, someone posted a picture of how they have their sensor oriented to their screen. That's exactly how mine is oriented as well and I think my calibrations turned out fine. Also, I started out with FtL readings in the low 12's and dropped to 10 or so post-calibration and I don't find my image lacking in the least. I do have a fairly light controlled room and my lamp has almost 600 hours on it.

I would completely ignore the CIE Diagram while doing calibrations and only focus on the numeric readings. If you can move those numbers into line, when you do eventually look at the CIE Diagram, wow it is impressive to see your color space right on the REC709 standard. Hey, thinking of that, are you certain that you do not have the SD standard selected in your calibration software???

If you are using ColorHCFR, it defaults to the wrong standard. Also, make sure you are feeding your projector a 1080p24 signal and your lamp is in 'whisper' mode.

George

#### stanger89

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GGB /forum/post/15944597

Hello stanger89, thanks for the reply, I am pointing it at the screen without the diffuser on.

You using HCFR? I'm just trying to figure out how bright my screen is, last time I tried it with my i1 pointed at the screen the number seemed awfully low. I'll have to give it a shot again....

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGB /forum/post/15944982

After reading Stangers post earlier maybe I should point the eyeone at the projector with the diffusor on?

That was for my information, not a suggestion
Unless your picture is really dim, off the screen should be good for the CCA/primaries. You'd only need to use the diffusor/point at the projector for the really low IRE measurements.

For example for me, under 10, maybe even 20 "IRE", the readings become unreliable.

#### tractng

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric_Haggis /forum/post/15750629

I had a Mits 3000 before this one, and the W5000 is a good deal quieter.

It's not as big as it is without a good reason, and part of that reason in the noise... It's basically a giant hushbox.

I moved house recently, and have had to drop the projector just a couple of feet above head-height (see pic). Even then, noise isn't a problem.

Electric_Haggis,

How is the sound when you stacked the center speaker on tob of the sub? I am thinking of doing the same when I get the screen.

What sub and center channel is that?

Is your setup in the living room?

thanks,

Tony

#### bub

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Here are my Measured Values,

MR

669

318

80

MG

298

624

434

MB

145

60

56

MW

277

302

George

#### Electric_Haggis

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tractng /forum/post/15945731

Electric_Haggis,

How is the sound when you stacked the center speaker on tob of the sub? I am thinking of doing the same when I get the screen.

What sub and center channel is that?

Is your setup in the living room?

thanks,

Tony

Hi Tony. There's a link to more info on the room if you click on my signature.

That's not actually a sub! It's a welded steel stand which I've wrapped up with a material called Wonderwall. (a black carpet-like material)

Generally, I'd advise against putting a Centre directly atop a sub for two reasons:

1. The sub's vibrations aren't doing the Centre any good.

2. The sub should ideally be off-centre for the best response in most rooms.

That said, it doesn't hurt to try.

Now... back to all things W5000 !

#### GGB

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bub /forum/post/15945088

I don't think that is your problem GGB. 10FtL is quite respectable after calibration and a semi-light controlled room. I wouldn't open your iris for calibrations if you aren't going to leave it open for viewing. As you already discovered, opening the iris affects your calibrations somewhat.

If you look back a page or so in this thread, someone posted a picture of how they have their sensor oriented to their screen. That's exactly how mine is oriented as well and I think my calibrations turned out fine. Also, I started out with FtL readings in the low 12's and dropped to 10 or so post-calibration and I don't find my image lacking in the least. I do have a fairly light controlled room and my lamp has almost 600 hours on it.

I would completely ignore the CIE Diagram while doing calibrations and only focus on the numeric readings. If you can move those numbers into line, when you do eventually look at the CIE Diagram, wow it is impressive to see your color space right on the REC709 standard. Hey, thinking of that, are you certain that you do not have the SD standard selected in your calibration software???

If you are using ColorHCFR, it defaults to the wrong standard. Also, make sure you are feeding your projector a 1080p24 signal and your lamp is in 'whisper' mode.

George

Hello Bub, thanks for the help, last night I was actually calibrating the 60Hz mode with AVSRec709 since Panasonic BD35 refuses to play AVCHD at 24Hz. Yeah HCFR is set to the right standard, REC709.

I do have it connected through my Onkyo 875 amplifier, it is set to "Through Mode" with "Immediate Display" disabled.

I have read the Onkyo outputs the wrong colorspace but setting it to through bypasses that fault.

Might try a direct connection from Blu Ray player to projector just to be sure.

Red, magenta and yellow have the dE value of 1.

Blue, green dE value of about 10 and Cyan has dE value of 5.

Lamp is in whisper mode and yeah I am placing the probe in front of the screen just like that picture a few pages back.

Checked greyscale out of interest to and dE values are all around the 1 mark so that's one thing right.

Thanks for all your help George.

#### Big Lebowski

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bub /forum/post/15942890

When you turn the SM/CCA off, you are shutting down any factory correction of the display processes that is done so that there is some uniformity throughout the W5K line, given that there are bound to be variances between individual units. You take measurements with your calibration software that take into account your room environment, but you don't want to take into consideration the factory corrections to variances.

Once you gather your readings, turning the SM/CCA back on doesn't matter as you are transferring your readings to the ISF/CCA, which now override the SM/CCA factory corrections.

Thanks for your input guys. This is exactly explanation I've heard so many times but there is a problem in this theory. I try to explain.

1. You measure values CCA off in SM.

2. You leave SM and CCA goes on automatically

3. You enter ISF/CCA menu and enter SM/CCA off values to measured fields

In my opinion problem with the last step is that you have CCA on and entering anything to measured fields does not take factory corrections away, nor does entering anything to desired field make CCA off as a starting point.

That step would make some sense if measured field would put pj in state where it would output exactly same picture as it did in the SM with CCA off, but it does not.

My understading is that it would make calculations easier if you tell it what your readings are with CCA on.

Anyway your theory would be easy to prove to be right or wrong by entering measured values to both measured and desired fields. If you get exactly same readings as in the SM/CCA off by doing so your theory works, otherwise not.

#### JohnBrown

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bub /forum/post/15946420

Here are my Measured Values,

MR

669

318

80

MG

298

624

434

MB

145

60

56

MW

277

302

George

Thanks a lot George! I tried your settings and the image does look very good actually. Some light is lost of course, but the colors seem pretty accurate.

BTW, I used "Normal" color temperature with these settings; as I understand, you suggest "Warm" in your calibration walkthrough, but have actually used "Normal", right?

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