AVS Forum banner

3441 - 3460 of 5195 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,789 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGB /forum/post/15956925


Hello, yeah didn't really have time to tweak green but it seemed to be acting the same way as before, i.e. not moving to the left on x without affecting y.

Maybe the main reason is that green primary is like that in reality and you cannot correct it with CCA because it only allows you to reduce primary, not expand it.

Quote:
I probably should have re-calculated measured values from the CCA in SM to do it properly.

What you mean exactly by that?

Quote:
Yes I do disable in there to get measured values.


I enterd measured values in ISF CCA menu earlier that night before I started shifting the probe about.

OK. Do you have to press that apply CCA-something every time you change your desired x, y or Y in the ISF/CCA to get them to make some effect?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
739 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Lebowski /forum/post/15956720


I searched thru this thread to find more tips how to use CCA menu and I find suggestion that measured values should be entered in SM. At least according to post below it seems so. Is that how everyone here does it?

Then you need to turn CCA Enable to OFF (This can only be done in the Service menu). Then you Measure x, y for RGB and put these values under Measured R, G, B i CCA Menu. Then you put CCA Enable to ON and there you are!


Here is link to full post
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=2219


According to his information all you have to do is to enter desired fields real values you want to reach (except for white you need to fine tune later) and then measure CCA off and enter measure values in the SM/CCA and then turn it back on and that it. Later you only need to tweak Y values correct but not touch x and y (except for white). Sounds too easy, anyone else tried that?

Big, no that is not correct. Go into Service Menu/CCA and turn it off. Keep the menu open as the CCA turns back on once you leave the Service Menu and the menu closes. Turn your menu settings to leave on for 30 seconds then every 20 seconds or so, move the cursor or something so the menu stays open while you take your initial run through your calibration software for color space. Your calibration software for color space should run through the primary colors, with you taking a reading for each, then secondary colors again taking readings for each, then white. After you do that, let the Service Menu close and enter the ISF menu and select CCA. Enter the data from your calibration software into the Measured Values section. You do this the exact same way you change the numbers when calibrating (the only difference is here you are changing the Measured Values but while calibrating you are changing the Desired Values), just move the numbers so that they match up with the numbers from your calibration software, that you just ran for primary and secondary colors.


After you do that, run your calibration software again through the primary and secondary colors, no need to have any menu open on the screen now. Once you've made your second run through your calibration software for color space, now change the numbers in the Desired Values section. What you are trying to do is move the Desired Values numbers towards the numbers from the REC709 chart. So for example, you have Desired Red at 'x' = 675 and your target number from the chart is 'x' = .640, you might try lowering 'x' for Desired Red by about 30 or so (this is where you get the hang of just how much to raise/lower the number to get the desired affect, it isn't number for number, meaning you don't lower 20 and get an exact 20 change).


I like to do all the colors, primary and secondary, at the same time because it is much faster. You take a run through the calibration software, then go into the ISF/CCA and change the Desired Values for each color, both 'x' and 'y'. Run the calibration software again and check to see how much change your last changes made to get you closer to the numbers from the REC709 chart. You can eventually throw 'Y' into the mix and start adjusting Luminance at the same time as you adjust each colors 'x' and 'y'.


Rinse and repeat until you are satisfied with your results. Do not look at the CIE Diagram in your calibration software for this, use the numeric readings section as it is infinitely easier to simply compare your actual numbers with the target numbers off the REC709 chart.


George


I guess you can adjust grayscale according to the recommendations here by adjusting Gains and Offsets in the Service Menu area under DLP before tackling the color space calibrations or during color space calibrations by adjusting the 'Y' or Luminance only. Both get you where you are going, not sure which is better although MichaelLTV suggest using Gains/Offsets.


I also forgot to add that I do save, or apply changes (or whatever it is at the bottom of each Desired Value color) after each color adjustment.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Lebowski /forum/post/15956974


Maybe the main reason is that green primary is like that in reality and you cannot correct it with CCA because it only allows you to reduce primary, not expand it.



What you mean exactly by that?



OK. Do you have to press that apply CCA-something every time you change your desired x, y or Y in the ISF/CCA to get them to make some effect?

Yeah look at page 71 of this thread and it seems you can only make the CIE triangle smaller not bigger. Don't know if you can do anything about that or not.


What I mean is that after moving the Eyeone to get the green co-ordinate closer I really should have gone back into Service Menu to disable the CCA and get brand new measured values and start again from scratch basically.


You are probably meant to do this if you move the Eyeone at any point during the calibration as your measured values will have changed.


I didn't do this as I was half asleep and just wanted one final quick attempt at it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,789 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by bub /forum/post/15956999


Big, no that is not correct. Go into Service Menu/CCA and turn it off.

Thanks for confirming this.

Quote:
After you do that, run your calibration software again through the primary and secondary colors, no need to have any menu open on the screen now. Once you've made your second run through your calibration software for color space, now change the numbers in the Desired Values section. What you are trying to do is move the Desired Values numbers towards the numbers from the REC709 chart. So for example, you have Desired Red at 'x' = 675 and your target number from the chart is 'x' = .640, you might try lowering 'x' for Desired Red by about 30 or so (this is where you get the hang of just how much to raise/lower the number to get the desired affect, it isn't number for number, meaning you don't lower 20 and get an exact 20 change).


I like to do all the colors, primary and secondary, at the same time because it is much faster. You take a run through the calibration software, then go into the ISF/CCA and change the Desired Values for each color, both 'x' and 'y'. Run the calibration software again and check to see how much change your last changes made to get you closer to the numbers from the REC709 chart. You can eventually throw 'Y' into the mix and start adjusting Luminance at the same time as you adjust each colors 'x' and 'y'.


Rinse and repeat until you are satisfied with your results. Do not look at the CIE Diagram in your calibration software for this, use the numeric readings section as it is infinitely easier to simply compare your actual numbers with the target numbers off the REC709 chart.

So you actually change all color values and then measure them all?

And again same procedure until they are right? You don't just take continuous readings and change one by one?


What I did last night was that I took one color, say green and I kept HCFR doing continuous reading and I tried to get that one color x,y and Y to match and only then moved to the next color.


So that was not how to do this? No wonder that felt like a pain in the @$$.

Quote:
I guess you can adjust grayscale according to the recommendations here by adjusting Gains and Offsets in the Service Menu area under DLP before tackling the color space calibrations or during color space calibrations by adjusting the 'Y' or Luminance only. Both get you where you are going, not sure which is better although MichaelLTV suggest using Gains/Offsets.

I noticed that during last night calibration that adjusting desired W works like gains/biases.



By the way, do you enter measured Y and how you calculate correct value from measurements?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
739 Posts
Hey Big,

I never thought to take continuous measurements and adjust color space that way. I'm thinking it isn't a good idea for two reasons off the top of my head. You have to have the W5K menu open and I don't think that is good for taking color readings especially since you don't have to do it that way. Two, moving 'x' for Red has a small affect on 'x' and 'y' for yellow and magenta. You really should take all readings, adjust all numbers towards REC709 and take another reading, adjust again, take another reading, adjust again etc... This way you get to see, not only what your changes are doing to get you closer to REC709 for that particular color, but how the changes are affecting all colors for 'x', 'y', and later 'Y'.


I never adjusted 'Y' for White. I just adjusted my grayscale and then color space to get it close, then took my value for 'Y' for White (this value is taken off the calibration software, to the far right at the end of the color numbers, if you are using the HCFR calibration software) and used that reading to adjust 'Y' for the primary color and secondary colors. That information is included in the REC709 chart I believe.


George


Sorry, from the REC709 chart ('Y' values);

Red .213

Green .715

Blue .072

Yellow .928

Cyan .787

Magenta .285

White 1.00


Take your 'Y' for White reading off your calibration software results after a couple of passes of 'taking readings' and 'adjusting for REC709' (I took 2 or 3 runs before even looking at 'Y'.)


My 'Y' for White reading was 26.288 (you can equate this number to the 1.00 'Y' for White number from the REC709 chart).

So, if I'm interested in adjusting 'Y' for Red, I can take the .213 (from the REC709 chart) and multiply it by your 'Y' for White.

My calculations for my numbers would be 26.288 X .213 = 5.599. 5.599 is now my target for 'Y' for Red.

For Cyan, I take .787 and mulitply it by 26.288 = 20.689. 20.689 is now my target for 'Y' for Cyan.


You now start adjusting for 'Y' as you adjust for 'x' and 'y'. You adjust for 'Y' by moving the Luminance adjustment on the same screen as you move each individual colors 'x' and 'y'. Take your readings, adjust all colors for 'x', 'y' and 'Y'. Rinse and repeat as often as necessary.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,789 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by bub /forum/post/15959402


Hey Big,

I never thought to take continuous measurements and adjust color space that way. I'm thinking it isn't a good idea for two reasons off the top of my head. You have to have the W5K menu open and I don't think that is good for taking color readings especially since you don't have to do it that way. Two, moving 'x' for Red has a small affect on 'x' and 'y' for yellow and magenta. You really should take all readings, adjust all numbers towards REC709 and take another reading, adjust again, take another reading, adjust again etc... This way you get to see, not only what your changes are doing to get you closer to REC709 for that particular color, but how the changes are affecting all colors for 'x', 'y', and later 'Y'.

Thanks. Seems that I need to try again with better instructions this time around.

Quote:
I never adjusted 'Y' for White. I just adjusted my grayscale and then color space to get it close, then took my value for 'Y' for White and used that reading to adjust 'Y' for the primary color and secondary colors. That information is included in the REC709 chart I believe.

Did you input measured Y values for measured R,G,B and W?


Do you have any idea does playing with CCA cause permanent damage? Can you really get back to your original picture by just entering original desired and measured values? I mean is it possible that depending on which order you write them back could cause difference in results?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
739 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Lebowski /forum/post/15959482


Thanks. Seems that I need to try again with better instructions this time around.



Did you input measured Y values for measured R,G,B and W?


Do you have any idea does playing with CCA cause permanent damage? Can you really get back to your original picture by just entering original desired and measured values? I mean is it possible that depending on which order you write them back could cause difference in results?

Yes, input for R, G, B and W for Measured Values.


Isn't there a restore settings option in the W5K menu? I've used it before in between calibration attempts. It too took my awhile to feel completely comfortable doing my calibration.


George
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,789 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by bub /forum/post/15959697


Yes, input for R, G, B and W for Measured Values.

But do you input Y value too, or just x and y? If Y too how do you calculate that from measured values to match Benq's Y field which have 0-2000 range for Y?

Quote:
Isn't there a restore settings option in the W5K menu? I've used it before in between calibration attempts. It too took my awhile to feel completely comfortable doing my calibration.

I think in the ISF menu there is but does it really put CCA in defaults too?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
739 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Lebowski /forum/post/15959749


But do you input Y value too, or just x and y? If Y too how do you calculate that from measured values to match Benq's Y field which have 0-2000 range for Y?



I think in the ISF menu there is but does it really put CCA in defaults too?

I never input any 'Y' values into Measured Values, only 'x' and 'y'. I'm wondering if one of our resident experts can chime in on this one as I really don't know.


I can't tell you how the restore defaults option works on the W5K as I've never paid attention. I just used it and assumed I was starting over from factory defaults. Again, perhaps an expert opinion can be requested???


George
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,789 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by bub /forum/post/15959827


I can't tell you how the restore defaults option works on the W5K as I've never paid attention. I just used it and assumed I was starting over from factory defaults.

Thanks again. Did you use restore defaults in the ISF menu or the ones in the user menu? You never inputted factory CCA defaults manually?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
739 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Lebowski /forum/post/15959872


Thanks again. Did you use restore defaults in the ISF menu or the ones in the user menu? You never inputted factory CCA defaults manually?

I don't even know what the factory CCA defaults are. I think I used the reset settings either in ISF menu or globally on the very first page of the menu. Isn't there a reset there?


George
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,789 Posts
Thanks for the tips Bub.


I finally got CCA calibration done with BC on and results look very good and bright picture around 11.4ftL (Y about 39).


See picture for CIE triangle and gray scale.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
739 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Lebowski /forum/post/15962316


Thanks for the tips Bub.


I finally got CCA calibration done with BC on and results look very good and bright picture around 11.4ftL (Y about 39).


See picture for CIE triangle and gray scale.

That does look good, congrats.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,789 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by bub /forum/post/15962488


That does look good, congrats.

Thanks. Well it's almost morning, so time to go to bed...




Just in case anyone interested here are my CCA values for BC on.

Desired

R 640, 330, 1990

G 300, 600, 873

B 147, 60, 931

C 176, 311, 764

M 366, 180, 1990

Y 443, 480, 1525

W 324, 301, 1000

(Red and magenta had to be pushed to the limit and still Y value was just a bit low but much better than default)

Measured (CCA off in service menu)

R 658, 319, 80

G 322, 622, 436

B 150, 67, 56

W 300, 343, 1000


ISF night

Brightness 57

Contrast 46

Color 50

Tint 0

Sharpness 6

Color temp Normal


Manual IRIS 2


Gamma 2.4


Brilliant Color ON


Calibrating procedure:

1. I opened ISF menu and selected Normal color temp.

2. Then I go to the SM and turn CCA off and do measurements without leaving SM and after measuring I turn CCA back on.

3. I enter back to ISF menu and I input measured values.

4. Then I select all desired x and y values according to Rec.709 and take measurements.

5. Then I tweak x and y values and redo measurements mayne 5 or 6 times. After x and y are pretty good I start modifying Y values and take readings. I redo that about 5 or 6 times too and I tweak also x and y when needed. I also do grey scale by CCA controls (desired W seems to work pretty well) and I never tweaked gray scale gain/biases in the sm.


Here is grey scale chart with BC on CCA calibrated (see brightness values, they are measured with manual IRIS 2)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,789 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murilo /forum/post/15962990


Thanks alot lebowski, just wondering what gamma value you use? Will try your settings tonight.

Gamma 2.4. I edited that info to my previous message. Let me know how those values worked for you.



Here is gamma chart.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,086 Posts
Before I try this, im running 1.12 firmware yet, so these wont stick.


But do I just put these numbers in the cca table in the service menu?


Desired

R 640, 330, 1990

G 300, 600, 873

B 147, 60, 931

C 176, 311, 764

M 366, 180, 1990

Y 443, 480, 1525

W 324, 301, 1000


IM a little unsure what the second set is?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,086 Posts
Nevermind I see its measured as the second set.


I put all values in, and used your isf setting, but i found the picture very redish yellow, im guessing from the bc.


Unless I did something wrong. But i followed your numbers. And used your isf night settings.


For desired x y and gain or luminance


and then the measured.


Then i hit apply cca and reset or cancel came up. I hit reset???


Well im guessing i dont hit reset as the picture was much better. Unfortunately while it was definately better putting in your values, it still showed more noise in my tests, and the glow to peoples faces. If they would allow you to use look 1, it would be alot better as well since it does not alter color really, but look 1 still showed the increase in noise sadly.



Obviously with 1.12 i cant save it, but i figured id give it a try on a movie to see if i want to upgrade to the latest for 50 dollars.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
310 Posts
Big Lebowski,


Awesome man, great timing on the settings. I've got this projector coming and I've been following some of your posts since you have been using this projector with BC on. I know that settings vary significantly by projector, room considerations, etc-but this will give me something to get started with.


Is anyone running BC on all the time, or only for sports/video games? What is the general consensus in getting the best bright picture for this projector? BC on with the iris clamped down or BC off with the iris opened up?


Can't wait to get this up and running. I've been without a projector for about 6 months and its killing me!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,045 Posts
Can anyone answer this simple question...


How do I get my CCA values to save?


Everytime I power down & up, they've reset (and yes - I'm on 2.01).


I won't get another chance to calibrate for a while, so for now I'm simply entering George's Measured and Desired values. They look very close.


* I'm using "ISF Night", and saving all CCA settings under that.


* For the record, I have ISF set to "Normal", rather than "Warm". This links to the Service Menu's Color Temperature settings, where I've tweaked all the RGB Gains & Offsets.

(Once you modify the gains/offsets, it doesn't matter whether you start with Warm, Cool, Normal or whatever - they all end up the same.)


* Just to confirm - Once you're using ISF/CCA, the SM/CCA becomes completely redundant, right? Even though "Enable CCA" keeps switching itself back to "On".


* Buggered if I can figure out what "Apply CCA table" does...


Thanks in advance.
 
3441 - 3460 of 5195 Posts
Top