[freychris42424]

Saw the BenQ w1080st for under $900 on Amazon and pulled the trigger. I had been coming from a Epson 8350 which I had been happy with for a while, but I never was a big fan of LCD projectors and I sit very close to my screen (1.1 SW) so I wanted to go 1080p DLP for my next projector. I also wanted to go short throw so I could use my Xbox One and the kinect without my shadow always getting in the way. I didn't expect a dramatic increase in performance since they are in the same class, but was a little disappointed with the brightness of the BenQ w1080st considering my Epson has ~1250 hours on the bulb it was only slightly less bright than the w1080st. Although, a major factor could be that I'm using a High Power 2.4 screen, which from my understanding isn't the best idea with a short throw projector. My Epson is already boxed up to ship to another forum member who purchased it, so sorry for no side by side pictures, but I can provide a subjective review for anyone interested. I ranked the two projectors in categories that were important to me with the most important starting at the top. I use the projector in a living room with ambient light.


Brightness
I think this is a wash, if I was comparing my Epson with 0 hours vs my Benq with 0 hours I bet the Epson would have been slightly brighter. Right now thought the Benq has an edge. I think this is also consistent with other reviews online.

SDE
I was hoping to see a bigger difference between the two, but only a slight edge to the Benq. My vision with contacts is 20/20 to give a reference.

Placement
For using a Kinect, the BenQ has big advantage, but the Epson is soooo easy to place with lens shift. I had to spend a lot of time trying to find a table that was the right height and making small adjustments to the feet to get the image to display within my screen near perfectly. I'm sure my cats will be respectful of how much time I spent placing it and not knock into the table

.

Black level
I do think the Benq has better depth than the Epson, in addition to deeper blacks...shadow detail for me was a wash. During the day this isn't a huge issue for me because of the ambient light pretty much makes any contrast ratio or black level meaningless.

Sharpness
The w1080st was noticable sharper, almost looks too artificially sharp....less of a film look than the Epson

Colors
It's hard to describe why colors have always bothered me a little with LCD projectors...I've always preferred the colors of DLPs of course they never could be placed easily. But but I also thought this was more of a wash for me than I was hoping between the two projectors.


Something else that was odd for me is that I do see rainbows on the BenQ, although for most media they are not super distracting. I used to own an X1 a looong time ago, about 10 years ago, and never saw them with a 2x color wheel. It probably has to do with the fact that Benq is brigher than the X1 but that was something else I was a little disappointed about. It's too bad there aren't really that many other options for 1080p short throw DLP PJs under 2k. I'd be willing to pay a little more for something brighter. I bought it through Amazon, so I could always trade it for another projector on Amazon if after a week or two I'm not happy...but not really sure what other choices I'd have for my preferences.


Chris

 

[kreeturez]

Quote:Originally Posted by freychris42424 

Something else that was odd for me is that I do see rainbows on the BenQ, although for most media they are not super distracting. I used to own an X1 a looong time ago, about 10 years ago, and never saw them with a 2x color wheel. It probably has to do with the fact that Benq is brigher than the X1 but that was something else I was a little disappointed about.


Brightness is definately part of the reason - but here's the other reason: the color wheel speed (fast as the claimed 6x sounds) isn't constant across framerates (just like with the W1070): see here.

To get full wheel speed (and hence minimize rainbows), you need to be running at 50Hz; at which you get a very-fast 300Hz Effective Wheel Spin-Rate.
60Hz is a bit worse (at a 240Hz Effective Spin-Rate); and 24Hz is actually pretty-much average (at just a 192Hz Effective Spin-Rate).

For this reason I run mine at 50Hz consistently and see no rainbows (I'm very sensitive).

The real question is why on earth BenQ has decided not to keep a roughly-the-same color wheel spin-rate throughout framerates.

(Begin Lots Of Math)

We know it's a double-RGB wheel (RGBRGB) so one physical revolution is an effective 2x. We also know that a minimum of one full physical revolution is required per input frame; which means our increments are going to be 2x. So perhaps that would sort-of explain the drop from 50Hz to 60Hz - so:
50Hz Input Framerate x 3 Revolutions x 2 Effective = 300Hz Effective (ie 150Hz Physical Spin-Rate)
Whereas:
60Hz Input Framerate x 3 Revolutions x 2 Effective = 'Hypothetical' 360Hz Effective (ie 180Hz 'Hypothetical' Physical Spin-Rate)

...perhaps 180hz (which is 10800 revolutions per minute) is beyond the motor's capability or hurts color fidelity or produces too much noise or etc etc etc; so the next lower color wheel multiplier is 2 Revolutions (instead of 3); giving us:
60Hz Input Framerate x 2 Revolutions x 2 Effective = 240Hz Effective (ie 120Hz Physical Spin-Rate).
...which was found to be the case.

Fine; maybe that explains the drop from 50Hz input framerate to 60Hz. Sort-of.
But then why did BenQ decide to run 24Hz input signals (the default for most Bluray players) at just 192Hz Effective (ie 96Hz Physical Spin-Rate)?

At 24Hz, the projector does this:

24Hz Input Framerate x 4 Revolutions x 2 Effective = 192Hz Effective (ie 96Hz Physical Spin-Rate).

That's a far cry from the 300Hz Effective that it does at 50Hz.

They could've simply used a multiplier of 6 Revolutions Per Input-Frame to nearly-match RBE performance of 50Hz - ie:
24Hz Input Framerate x 6 Revolutions x 2 Effective = 288Hz Effective (ie 144Hz Physical Spin-Rate).
...which is just marginally lower than the Effective 300Hz we get with a 50Hz input signal; and would've been fast enough to eradicate most rainbows.
But instead they didn't: and therefore at the most common output frame-rate of HD sources (24hz), they've provided the slowest wheel spin-speed. It boggles my mind.

(End Lots Of Math)


Still, I absolutely love my W1070 and wouldn't swap it for anything else (and 192Hz effective is still considered very respectable); but I continue to find this decision to be rather silly.

TL;DR: In terms of your Xbox One, you're probably getting 60Hz out of it, right? Does it offer anywhere to drop to 50Hz? If so, try dropping it and you should see a noticeable improvement in terms of rainbows

 

[freychris42424]

Thanks for all the info! I'll look into the settings to see if there is something that can drop it down to 50.


Chris

 

[Sean Spamilton]

Quote:Originally Posted by freychris42424

Something else that was odd for me is that I do see rainbows on the BenQ, although for most media they are not super distracting. I used to own an X1 a looong time ago, about 10 years ago, and never saw them with a 2x color wheel. It probably has to do with the fact that Benq is brigher than the X1 but that was something else I was a little disappointed about.


Brightness is definately part of the reason - but here's the other reason: the color wheel speed (fast as the claimed 6x sounds) isn't constant across framerates (just like with the W1070): see here.

To get full wheel speed (and hence minimize rainbows), you need to be running at 50Hz; at which you get a very-fast 300Hz Effective Wheel Spin-Rate.
60Hz is a bit worse (at a 240Hz Effective Spin-Rate); and 24Hz is actually pretty-much average (at just a 192Hz Effective Spin-Rate).

For this reason I run mine at 50Hz consistently and see no rainbows (I'm very sensitive).

The real question is why on earth BenQ has decided not to keep a roughly-the-same color wheel spin-rate throughout framerates.

(Begin Lots Of Math)

We know it's a double-RGB wheel (RGBRGB) so one physical revolution is an effective 2x. We also know that a minimum of one full physical revolution is required per input frame; which means our increments are going to be 2x. So perhaps that would sort-of explain the drop from 50Hz to 60Hz - so:
50Hz Input Framerate x 3 Revolutions x 2 Effective = 300Hz Effective (ie 150Hz Physical Spin-Rate)
Whereas:
60Hz Input Framerate x 3 Revolutions x 2 Effective = 'Hypothetical' 360Hz Effective (ie 180Hz 'Hypothetical' Physical Spin-Rate)

...perhaps 180hz (which is 10800 revolutions per minute) is beyond the motor's capability or hurts color fidelity or produces too much noise or etc etc etc; so the next lower color wheel multiplier is 2 Revolutions (instead of 3); giving us:
60Hz Input Framerate x 2 Revolutions x 2 Effective = 240Hz Effective (ie 120Hz Physical Spin-Rate).
...which was found to be the case.

Fine; maybe that explains the drop from 50Hz input framerate to 60Hz. Sort-of.
But then why did BenQ decide to run 24Hz input signals (the default for most Bluray players) at just 192Hz Effective (ie 96Hz Physical Spin-Rate)?

At 24Hz, the projector does this:

24Hz Input Framerate x 4 Revolutions x 2 Effective = 192Hz Effective (ie 96Hz Physical Spin-Rate).

That's a far cry from the 300Hz Effective that it does at 50Hz.

They could've simply used a multiplier of 6 Revolutions Per Input-Frame to nearly-match RBE performance of 50Hz - ie:
24Hz Input Framerate x 6 Revolutions x 2 Effective = 288Hz Effective (ie 144Hz Physical Spin-Rate).
...which is just marginally lower than the Effective 300Hz we get with a 50Hz input signal; and would've been fast enough to eradicate most rainbows.
But instead they didn't: and therefore at the most common output frame-rate of HD sources (24hz), they've provided the slowest wheel spin-speed. It boggles my mind.

(End Lots Of Math)


Still, I absolutely love my W1070 and wouldn't swap it for anything else (and 192Hz effective is still considered very respectable); but I continue to find this decision to be rather silly.

TL;DR: In terms of your Xbox One, you're probably getting 60Hz out of it, right? Does it offer anywhere to drop to 50Hz? If so, try dropping it and you should see a noticeable improvement in terms of rainbows

If I'm running everything including blue-rays from my PC to the 1070 - is there a way to get the PC to output to 50hz even for the blue ray playback? I DID read the thread but I'm afraid math is not my strong suit

 

[Ftoast]

Usually the same screen where you can select resolution will also have refresh options. Right-click the desktop and either enter your graphic options or screen properties. It's usually in the advanced options tab if nothing else.

 

[Sean Spamilton]

Usually the same screen where you can select resolution will also have refresh options. Right-click the desktop and either enter your graphic options or screen properties. It's usually in the advanced options tab if nothing else.

So for gaming I can force a 50hz refresh - fair enough, how would this apply to blue rays running from my media center? IE. - Blue rays encoded at 24fps- and I'm probably confusing things here - but can I force a 50hz refresh rate and run a blue ray recorded at 24hz just fine - or will it destroy the cinema effect of the movie / introduce judder?

 

[Ftoast]

I think it'll work out alright, but I'd wait for someone who knows for sure to chime in because I've heard some of the media-players can force 24Hz playback which would be weird considering the monitor is set for something else and isn't always necessary even compatible with 24Hz play..so I doubt it forces anything back. Also I've not noticed judder on any of the times I've forced DLPs to refresh at 50-60Hz and the Benq is more expensive than what I usually use.

 

[Sean Spamilton]

I think it'll work out alright, but I'd wait for someone who knows for sure to chime in because I've heard some of the media-players can force 24Hz playback which would be weird considering the monitor is set for something else and isn't always necessary even compatible with 24Hz play..so I doubt it forces anything back. Also I've not noticed judder on any of the times I've forced DLPs to refresh at 50-60Hz and the Benq is more expensive than what I usually use.

Good to know - Thanks!

 

[kreeturez]

A sort-of follow up to all of the above; seems to be good news.

I was mailed a Russian review on the successor to the W1070 (the W1070+/HT1075) that indicates a 288Hz wheel spin rate at 24Hz input; which (if true) would solve my complaint above with regards to RBE with 24Hz sources:

But then why did BenQ decide to run 24Hz input signals (the default for most Bluray players) at just 192Hz Effective (ie 96Hz Physical Spin-Rate)?

At 24Hz, the projector does this:

24Hz Input Framerate x 4 Revolutions x 2 Effective = 192Hz Effective (ie 96Hz Physical Spin-Rate).

That's a far cry from the 300Hz Effective that it does at 50Hz.

They could've simply used a multiplier of 6 Revolutions Per Input-Frame to nearly-match RBE performance of 50Hz - ie:
24Hz Input Framerate x 6 Revolutions x 2 Effective = 288Hz Effective (ie 144Hz Physical Spin-Rate).
...which is just marginally lower than the Effective 300Hz we get with a 50Hz input signal; and would've been fast enough to eradicate most rainbows.
But instead they didn't: and therefore at the most common output frame-rate of HD sources (24hz), they've provided the slowest wheel spin-speed. It boggles my mind.

The review is here:
http://www.ixbt.com/dvd/benq-w1070-plus.shtml

It's an extremely detailed review. They graph brightness against time there (I've never seen that done before).

A rough Google Translate:

The projector is equipped with a color wheel of six segments of repeating triads of red, green and blue colors.

Judging by the brightness chart over time, the frequency of alternating segments is 240 Hz on a vertical scan of 60 Hz - that is, it has a speed of 4x at 60Hz.

In 24p mode, frequency of interleaving segments is 288 Hz, which is very good, as typically on a 24 frame / s input, the rate is reduced. The effect of "rainbow" is present, but thus not very noticeable.

They even mention the same gripe I do about the stupid prior decision to drop speed for 24Hz - and how it's been addressed in the new model.

Man if this is true, I'd be mighty pleased since 24Hz on the older W1070 is poor in this regard. In contrast, this would put RBE visibility on 24Hz input sources on the newer model at nearly as low as with 50Hz input sources (which for me, is practically RBE-free). Would love to see some confirmation on this measurement. It's something I'll look into and report back on if I ever lay my hands on an HT1075.

 

[dreamer]

A sort-of follow up to all of the above; seems to be good news.

I was mailed a Russian review on the successor to the W1070 (the W1070+/HT1075) that indicates a 288Hz wheel spin rate at 24Hz input; which (if true) would solve my complaint above with regards to RBE with 24Hz sources:




The review is here:
http://www.ixbt.com/dvd/benq-w1070-plus.shtml

It's an extremely detailed review. They graph brightness against time there (I've never seen that done before).

A rough Google Translate:



They even mention the same gripe I do about the stupid prior decision to drop speed for 24Hz - and how it's been addressed in the new model.

Man if this is true, I'd be mighty pleased since 24Hz on the older W1070 is poor in this regard. In contrast, this would put RBE visibility on 24Hz input sources on the newer model at nearly as low as with 50Hz input sources (which for me, is practically RBE-free). Would love to see some confirmation on this measurement. It's something I'll look into and report back on if I ever lay my hands on an HT1075.

Any mention if this was a hardware change or just firmware ? Has anyone mentioned whether the 1075 is running the same 1.08 firmware as the last W1070 released ? Maybe those with W1070s with the 1.08 firmware are already getting this benefit ?

 

[kreeturez]

Any mention if this was a hardware change or just firmware ? Has anyone mentioned whether the 1075 is running the same 1.08 firmware as the last W1070 released ? Maybe those with W1070s with the 1.08 firmware are already getting this benefit ?

The HT1075 will be running a different firmware tree due to all the menu re-designing.

But the first thing I checked when updating my W1070 to 1.08 was this; and it was unchanged.


A quick way of testing even without a dark room in which to project, is to put an ear near the main exhaust vent when changing refresh rate: the CW produces an extremely soft, high pitch whine. If the whine goes up in pitch, the wheel is speeding up to sync at a higher spin-rate. If it goes down, the opposite. The W1070 is definitely dropping (very significantly) on 1.08 when swapping from, say, 60Hz or 50Hz to 24Hz.

On the HT1075 (assuming the review analyses is accurate), one would instead hear the pitch go upwards when changing from from 60Hz to 24Hz.

Would love to try this out on the new model.

 

[subliminac]

Man if this is true, I'd be mighty pleased since 24Hz on the older W1070 is poor in this regard. In contrast, this would put RBE visibility on 24Hz input sources on the newer model at nearly as low as with 50Hz input sources (which for me, is practically RBE-free). Would love to see some confirmation on this measurement. It's something I'll look into and report back on if I ever lay my hands on an HT1075.

I would love to have an answer on this as well. I recently purchased a refurb W1070 and found that I could nearly eliminate rainbows by having the player output at 50 hz and by setting 100 IRE brightness just below 20 ftL during calibration. This is coming from someone who is very sensitive to RBE. The projector was also purchased for the sole purpose of watching B&W movies, many with subtitles, making it a virtual torture test for this effect. The results so far are lovely. The only sacrifice is that in setting output to 50 hz, you lose the smoothness in panning shots that 24 hz output provides. If the Russian review is accurate I would certainly upgrade to the HT1075. I still have a couple weeks left in my return window for the W1070 to make a decision.

 

[kreeturez]

I would love to have an answer on this as well. I recently purchased a refurb W1070 and found that I could nearly eliminate rainbows by having the player output at 50 hz and by setting 100 IRE brightness just below 20 ftL during calibration. This is coming from someone who is very sensitive to RBE. The projector was also purchased for the sole purpose of watching B&W movies, many with subtitles, making it a virtual torture test for this effect. The results so far are lovely. The only sacrifice is that in setting output to 50 hz, you lose the smoothness in panning shots that 24 hz output provides. If the Russian review is accurate I would certainly upgrade to the HT1075. I still have a couple weeks left in my return window for the W1070 to make a decision.

Yeah, an effective 300Hz spin-rate (at 50Hz) from the W1070 is class-leading at this price-point. I'm also extremely sensitive to rainbows (I used to complain about RBE even on old RP DLP TV's - back when almost no-one knew what I was talking about! ) - the experience at 50Hz on the W1070 is practically RBE free. I'd happily stick to DLP projectors going forward provided that this is the kind of speed that becomes standard.
Getting nearly as high (ie, 288Hz) at 24Hz would be fantastic and; as you say, eradicate pull-down on 24Hz sources for the RBE-sensitive among us.

I'm a few thousand hours into ownership already (2200 hours on the first lamp - still extremely bright - so no need to upgrade - unless we get another one for the main bedroom, I guess!), but I'd probably recommend the HT1075 going forward over the W1070 for this reason; assuming I can confirm it.

Although with the W1070 becoming scarcer as stock diminishes, most new buyers will be naturally purchasing the HT1075 in any case...

 

[Peterc613]

Keystone correction & projector distance

 

[subliminac]

Would love to try this out on the new model.

I now have both the W1070 and the HT1075 in my home and will report back on my findings. If the Russian review is correct I will stick with the HT1075 and return W1070. Very excited to see how it handles 24 hz!

 

[subliminac]

It appears that the Russian review is indeed accurate. You can hear the color wheel speed increase when the player output is switched from 60 hz to 24 hz. I also noticed no difference in terms of RBE when playing movies back at 50 hz or 24 hz. Sure, there may have been a slight difference, but it was so negligible I couldn't tell if I was only imagining it. I still saw the occasional rainbow, but it never really bothered me.

It's a very impressive little projector with excellent accuracy out of the box in Cinema mode. Once I calibrated for grayscale all colors measured at 2 or below delta E. Thus I felt no need to use the CMS. I have now demoed the W1070, HT1075, as well as the Optoma HD50. To me the HT1075 is the best of the batch. Amazing price to performance, and highly recommended.

 

[kreeturez]

It appears that the Russian review is indeed accurate. You can hear the color wheel speed increase when the player output is switched from 60 hz to 24 hz. I also noticed no difference in terms of RBE when playing movies back at 50 hz or 24 hz.

Yeeeeeeeeaaahh!!! Thanks very much for the feedback. I'm glad they listened to their customers and sorted this out: 50Hz-levels of RBE at 24Hz input would make me very happy in terms of eradicating pull-down on panning scenes (when running at 50Hz on the W1070 to eliminate rainbows). I guess I can put my last gripe (from the top of this thread) to rest.

Man, now I've got the itch to upgrade.

It's a very impressive little projector with excellent accuracy out of the box in Cinema mode. Once I calibrated for grayscale all colors measured at 2 or below delta E. Thus I felt no need to use the CMS. I have now demoed the W1070, HT1075, as well as the Optoma HD50. To me the HT1075 is the best of the batch. Amazing price to performance, and highly recommended

Comparing the HT1075 to the W1070 (and the HD50), what else did you find better, other than better RBE handling? Was accuracy out of the box even better on the HT1075 than W1070? And what about brightness?

 

[subliminac]

Comparing the HT1075 to the W1070 (and the HD50), what else did you find better, other than better RBE handling? Was accuracy out of the box even better on the HT1075 than W1070? And what about brightness?

I found the out of box accuracy to be better on the HT1075. I read a couple reviews online which claimed the opposite so perhaps there was a firmware update somewhere along the line to improve it. I watch a lot of B&W films so I've always been sensitive to inaccuracies in grayscale. While letting the bulb break in a little and waiting for night to arrive before setting out to do a full calibration, I watched an old film noir from the 40s. Just setting it to the Cinema preset and adjusting the contrast level gave me a very impressive image right away, leaving me to enjoy the movie without distraction. When performing the calibration afterward it was clear based on the measurements that grayscale improvements needed to be made. After these adjustments color was spot on (no need to touch the CMS), something that was not the case when I set up the W1070 which had noticeable errors in green, cyan and blue if I recall.


I didn't notice any lamp brightness difference, although I didn't look into it. I project onto what most here would consider a small screen (about 90") so I've never had the need to find a projector with a high lumen output. I almost always watch at night as well, although the room is not a dedicated theater room.


I'm sure with a thorough calibration both projectors could be made to look identical so the primary selling point here is the improved RBE handling at 24 hz.


In comparison to the HD50 I found the Benq(s) to have better sharpness (provided you didn't use the detail enhancement feature on the HD50, I try to keep any additional image processing at a minimum) and less chromatic aberration, which was easily visible on text on the model I demoed, when watching films it wasn't noticeable at all. I found the color to be more natural on the Benq(s) as well. I can't quite put my finger on it, but there was a harshness to the HD50's handling of color that often seemed a little off to me. Perhaps with a more extensive calibration it could have been dealt with. In terms of RBE the HD50 when fed a 60 hz signal was the best I have ever seen in a single chip DLP. I never noticed it at all, and as I said before this was with it being tested on B&W films with subtitles. If it was ever going to show it certainly would there. This benefit was lost however when fed a 24 hz signal. In this instance it performed similar to the W1070.


I'm really surprised that none of the reviews I read on the HT1075 mentioned this upgrade in color wheel speed. Your post here with the link to the Russian review was the first I heard of it. To me this is a major upgrade that needs to be promoted and encouraged in other DLP manufacturers.

 

[kreeturez]

I found the out of box accuracy to be better on the HT1075. I read a couple reviews online which claimed the opposite so perhaps there was a firmware update somewhere along the line to improve it. I watch a lot of B&W films so I've always been sensitive to inaccuracies in grayscale. While letting the bulb break in a little and waiting for night to arrive before setting out to do a full calibration, I watched an old film noir from the 40s. Just setting it to the Cinema preset and adjusting the contrast level gave me a very impressive image right away, leaving me to enjoy the movie without distraction. When performing the calibration afterward it was clear based on the measurements that grayscale improvements needed to be made. After these adjustments color was spot on (no need to touch the CMS), something that was not the case when I set up the W1070 which had noticeable errors in green, cyan and blue if I recall.



I'm sure with a thorough calibration both projectors could be made to look identical so the primary selling point here is the improved RBE handling at 24 hz.


In comparison to the HD50 I found the Benq(s) to have better sharpness (provided you didn't use the detail enhancement feature on the HD50, I try to keep any additional image processing at a minimum) and less chromatic aberration, which was easily visible on text on the model I demoed, when watching films it wasn't noticeable at all. I found the color to be more natural on the Benq(s) as well. I can't quite put my finger on it, but there was a harshness to the HD50's handling of color that often seemed a little off to me.

I'm really surprised that none of the reviews I read on the HT1075 mentioned this upgrade in color wheel speed. Your post here with the link to the Russian review was the first I heard of it. To me this is a major upgrade that needs to be promoted and encouraged in other DLP manufacturers.

Agreed. As per my original rant in this thread, there was never really a good reason for it to be any other way: it's not like high speed makes significant audible noise or the like (the wheel is almost inaudible - at least on the BenQ). The review does mention that it's uncommon: I just have no idea why. With RBE being such a sticking point against DLP, this kind of thing should, as you say, be more commonplace.

I'm glad it's been addressed in the new model. I suspect this is why we hear so few reports about rainbows/RBE on it...

Now if only I could get ahold of firmware that does the same to my older W1070!

Thanks for taking the time to report your findings!