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Hi my name is Jonathan I am new to projectors. I was wondering what everyone thinks is the best dlp projector under $5000. I am looking to get a new projector well my first projector. I am not just looking at dlp, lcd is an option also the ony thing is th convergence missalianment scarres me a little bit. This will all be new to me , so opinions on screens as well would be appreciated. My room is 13.5x 15.5. The celings are 8 foot and white. The walls are a flat med mocha brown, and it has hardwood floors. I will be watching probally like 55% movies,40%tv and 5% games. I have about 96% light control, but would like to watch sometimes with some light on. I was thinking a da-lite high power screen for this situation I can mount the projector on a shelf about 8-10 inches above eye level. So what do you guys think?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwhite00030 /forum/post/18156870


So what do you guys think?

You found the right forum!


See if you can go to a shootout of different projectors so you can see the differences between DLP, LCD and LCOS.


There is no best projector...its what's best for you
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans /forum/post/18157105

My feet are getting cold!

Wait for it...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwhite00030 /forum/post/18156870


Hi my name is Jonathan I am new to projectors. I was wondering what everyone thinks is the best dlp projector under $5000. I am looking to get a new projector well my first projector. I am not just looking at dlp, lcd is an option also the ony thing is th convergence missalianment scarres me a little bit. This will all be new to me , so opinions on screens as well would be appreciated. My room is 13.5x 15.5. The celings are 8 foot and white. The walls are a flat med mocha brown, and it has hardwood floors. I will be watching probally like 55% movies,40%tv and 5% games. I have about 96% light control, but would like to watch sometimes with some light on. I was thinking a da-lite high power screen for this situation I can mount the projector on a shelf about 8-10 inches above eye level. So what do you guys think?

If your budget is higher than $3K, don't even think about LCD. LCDs can be great "budget" machines, but they can't compare with DLP and LCOS/SXRD for high-end images delivered by the better PJs.


I bought an Epson 8500 which is the LCD to beat at the $2500 mark, and the screen-door was pretty bothersome from even a 1.6 screen width. Made the picture look hazy. I hear that the Panny is better on SDE, but both are considered on-par with each other overall.


The JVC RS2 clone I bought (pioneer) is stunningly better than the Epson, and my older 1080p LCOS HD2K, in every way. Sharp, clear, finely resolved detail, silky-smooth image and deep black and saturated color. There are excellent DLP units in your price range too. Bottom line is that leave LCD behind if your budget is 3K or higher.


Do you see rainbows? I had a single chip DLP (ben Q 8700) and the rainbows bothered me, so I went LCOS as soon as I could. However, there are faster DLP machines that are less problematic with rainbows.


I figured I'd hang out with my used RS2 clone until LED-lamp 3D PJs are here. LED would make single-chip DLP virtually rainbow free bcs of the 100% used DMD cycle time (no spoke time wasted with as with a wheel) and faster color transitions... so maybe my 3D PJ might be DLP.


Oh, I also have the hipower screen and it's MUCH BETTER in terms of detail and resolution than typical angular reflective screens I've seen. My PJ is mounted ceiling height and the image is still bright enough, but if you can do closer to head height the hipower is PERFECT as long as you don't have off-axis viewers way off to the side. If everyone is basically in front of the screen in some way, the hipower is perfect for everyone.
 

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I would also add some sort of carpeting to your room for sound absorbtion. This could be a throw rug but will make a big difference. Also, making the ceiling dark in front of the projector will help to add contrast to the picture or you will lose some of the deeper blacks from better projectors. Make sure of the fixed off set of some of the DLP's if they do not have lens shift.
 

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jwhite00030 -- Welcome to the AVS Forum Jonathan (if you haven't been welcomed already). Being new to projectors, remember that PJs do not have any sound capabilities, so you will need to add a surround sound system too (if you don't have one already). A throw rug on the floor will help with that too - bare hardwood floors are very reflective for audio.


In the $3K to $5K range of DLPs, you will have a selection of some units that do have, at least, vertical lens shift. Without lens shift, you won't be able to shelf mount the PJ slightly above your head and behind your seating position.


I second DaViD Boulet's comment about the Da-Lite High-Power screen. The full gain of that screen (I own one too) will only be achievable with a shelf mounted PJ at about head height. However, for ceiling mounting, you loose about 50% of the screen gain, but your white ceiling will be a big detraction, as it will get a lot of reflected light from the screen. Also, most DLPs, in the category you are looking at, will have enough brightness to overcome that deficiency. Just food for thought.


Properly setting up a projector takes a lot more planning than just buying a HDTV set and putting it in you room. Therefore, be prepared to spend some time getting all the details correct. Your enjoyment of your new Home Theater will be greatly improved, if it is planned out.


BTW, I have a 13' wide room and my 106" screen is almost a perfect size (92" x 52") and the screen fits perfectly. We sit at about 11' from the screen and a 1080p image is just great (I have a Mitsubishi HC5500, 1080p LCD PJ, and have no panel convergence problems or SDE issues).
 

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Quote:
BTW, I have a 13' wide room and my 106" screen is almost a perfect size (92" x 52") and the screen fits perfectly. We sit at about 11' from the screen and a 1080p image is just great (I have a Mitsubishi HC5500, 1080p LCD PJ, and have no panel convergence problems or SDE issues).

Very interesting! I wonder if the Mits has less SDE than the Epson I briefly had which had good convergence but a bothersome "haze" from SDE at that same distance.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet /forum/post/18161178


Very interesting! I wonder if the Mits has less SDE than the Epson I briefly had which had good convergence but a bothersome "haze" from SDE at that same distance.

I am at 1.6 distance (10 foot wide scope screen (also da lite 2.8 HP screen), and see a very clean, (mostly grain free, and definitly no SDE), from two LCD projectors (MITS 6800, and EPSON 6500 (previous generation 1080p model to the 8500 you were using). Perhaps your unit had some issues ?


CHEERS, TC
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk /forum/post/18161598


Could be the difference between 1.6x based on 2.35:1 and based on 16:9...

COULD BE, however I have a drop down,high power,16:9 screen (da lite,2.8)that drops down in front of the scope screen, and I still cant say i have ever seen SDE on any LCD (1080 P,circa 2009 going forward),however I do use glass;s (20/20,correction),so perhaps some one with better eye sight, can see it.


CHEERS, TC
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwhite00030 /forum/post/18156870


The celings are 8 foot and white.

I highly recommend painting your ceiling black or moch like your walls. Dark less reflective ceiling will substantially help your iq.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet /forum/post/18158348


....I bought an Epson 8500 which is the LCD to beat at the $2500 mark, and the screen-door was pretty bothersome from even a 1.6 screen width. Made the picture look hazy. I hear that the Panny is better on SDE, but both are considered on-par with each other overall..........

You must have 20/10 vision to be seeing SDE with an Epson 8500UB at 1.6 screen widths. I have 20/20 vision and I can't see any SDE at more than a 1 screen width using my 6500UB. In any case with a $5K budget I'd be looking at the JVCs (LCoS) at the top of the list of candidates or perhaps just wait until CEDIA in Sept. to see if there are 3D DLP projectors in this price range (my guess is there will be) coming out toward the end of 2010.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet /forum/post/18158348


....I figured I'd hang out with my used RS2 clone until LED-lamp 3D PJs are here. LED would make single-chip DLP virtually rainbow free bcs of the 100% used DMD cycle time (no spoke time wasted with as with a wheel) and faster color transitions... so maybe my 3D PJ might be DLP.................

I fear you will be waiting a long time indeed. 3D will cause a 70% to 80% loss of brightness (using either polarized or shutter technology) as compared to 2D projection. Its been 3 years since LEDs became bright enough for 60 inch rear projectors and LED based front projectors are just now getting bright enough for 2D and even then only with modest size screens and these models are quite expensive (i.e., 1080p models suitable for home theater applications and not mini-portable business projectors or toys). To get another 300% to 500% in light output from LEDs as would be need to 3D, and to do so at a resonable price, could take another decade.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones /forum/post/18164485


You must have 20/10 vision to be seeing SDE with an Epson 8500UB at 1.6 screen widths. I have 20/20 vision and I can't see any SDE at more than a 1 screen width using my 6500UB. In any case with a $5K budget I'd be looking at the JVCs (LCoS) at the top of the list of candidates or perhaps just wait until CEDIA in Sept. to see if there are 3D DLP projectors in this price range (my guess is there will be) coming out toward the end of 2010.

What I'm calling SDE is what some folks have called "grain" or "haze". What it looks like is a slight haziness in bright light areas of the screen like white areas in clouds and skies. I think I'm sensitive bcs the HD2K I used before had no SDE signature at all, so moving to this LCD really made it apparent. Lots of folks who got the 8500 as their first PJ noticed no such artifacts, I think bcs they were used to LCD and Plasma direct-views which also overlay pixel-edge artifacts into the image to some degree.


Quote:
I fear you will be waiting a long time indeed. 3D will cause a 70% to 80% loss of brightness (using either polarized or shutter technology) as compared to 2D projection. Its been 3 years since LEDs became bright enough for 60 inch rear projectors and LED based front projectors are just now bearly getting bright enough for 2D and even then only with modest size screens and these models are quite expensive (i.e., 1080p models suitable for home theater applications and not mini-portable business projectors or toys). To get another 300% to 500% in light output from LEDs as would be need to 3D, and to do so at a resonable price, could take another decade.

yeah yeah, I know all that. That's why I decided to get the RS2 clone for now while I wait for LED 3D front projection to work itself out. Of course, direct-veiw 100" could get there first... I'm thinking of the 72" VIZIO. Maybe a 100" 3D direct view won't be too far behind... as long as it delivers the image I'm after, I don't care what technology is behind my 100" image!


dave
 

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Dave, what you're describing sounds more like a lack of sharpness more than actual SDE. True SDE shows up in the form of a square grid pixel pattern that looks like you're looking at the picture through a screen door... hence the name. It doesn't impact just one area or bright or dark scenes (even though it is more noticeable with a light background), but rather the entire picture. SDE was much more noticeable on 720p and lower LCD projectors, because the pixels were bigger. With 1080p lcd projectors, the pixels have gotten small enough that you can very rarily see any SDE from more than a few feet back. Some manufacturers are better at disgusining than others. I know with my Viewsonic Pro8100, I literally have to be within 1' - 2' of the screen to even discern pixel structure, and even at that distance, I wouldn't say that I get SDE like I've seen on older LCD pjs. While true that LCD projectors typically aren't as sharp as their DLP counterparts, I've found that this isn't necessarily a rule. Optics, convergance, and processing all play into the sharpness equation. I've seen LCD projectors that were every bit as sharp as the sharpest DLP counterparts and vice versa. I still have yet to see any of the LCOS offerings that were as sharp as the best LCD or DLP pjs though, even though LCOS wins in almost every other area. That said, each technology has its strengths and weaknesses. While each of us has preferences, I think we would be doing the OP a disservice steering him away from a particular image technology. As was previously stated, his best bet is to get out to as many specialty Home Theater stores as possible (avoid the big box stores... it's just not worth it!), and actually putting some of the projectors through the paces. While I learned a lot reading reviews, and from forum posters here, I learned far more about what was important to me by actually seeing the pjs in action in the right kind of environment.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Rider /forum/post/18167139


Dave, what you're describing sounds more like a lack of sharpness more than actual SDE. True SDE shows up in the form of a square grid pixel pattern that looks like you're looking at the picture through a screen door... hence the name. It doesn't impact just one area or bright or dark scenes (even though it is more noticeable with a light background), but rather the entire picture. SDE was much more noticeable on 720p and lower LCD projectors, because the pixels were bigger. With 1080p lcd projectors, the pixels have gotten small enough that you can very rarily see any SDE from more than a few feet back. Some manufacturers are better at disgusining than others. I know with my Viewsonic Pro8100, I literally have to be within 1' - 2' of the screen to even discern pixel structure, and even at that distance, I wouldn't say that I get SDE like I've seen on older LCD pjs.

I've had a 720p DLP and a 1080p LCOS... never fear, I know what SDE is and looks like.


SDE is "screen door effect" and describes ALL artifacts related to inter-pixel spacing (lack of fill factor) which can take on various types of appearnaces depending on the resolution/pixel-densigh based on a veiwer's viewing angle. At lower resolutions like 720 this meant you could actually see "square" transitions from your 1.5 distance, and stair-stepping like edge countours on sharply defined text. At the 1080 level from 1.5 screen widths the pixels are small enough that the "squares" vanish, but the inter-pixel spacing leaves a visible signature non-the-less... more akin to a haze or veil that keeps the picture from looking sikly-smooth as 100% fill factor would theoratically look.


Think about it this way, if you walk up close to a screen window in your home and look through it, you'll see the squares in the screen's mesh. If you walk 10 feet back, the "squares" are no longer visible, but the half of the window covered by your screen still looks a little hazier than the half that has no screen at all. Both examples are "screen door effect" even though only the closer distance revealed the square shape of the screen's meshed structure.


What I saw on the Epson 8500 was 100% SDE... at the 1920 x 1080 level these sharp LCD display have pixels so small it's hard to see "the pixels" from your 1.5 screen width as you would easily see the stair-stepping edges at the 720p level. Because that's when we started first thinking about SDE that may be how some viewers think SDE has to look, but SDE isn't limited to this one characteristic appearance: at the 1920 x 1080 level the lack of fill-factor between the pixels still creates visible artifacting, but a very fine "mesh" too small to see the actual squares, but still leaving what looks to some viewers like a "haze" that is only visible in bright areas of the picture.


Some other owners of the 8500 also stated this, typically those more familiar with how these same images would look on higher-fill-factor machines.


Since at the 1080 level the pixel size changes the characteristics of SDE from the "pixels" you see at 720 to more of a "haze", most folks seeing SDE on 1080 machines might not call it SDE because they can't actually discern the pixels themselves and so assume they can't be seeing SDE. I think lots of people who complained about "grain" or "noise" on the Epson 8500 (there were many) were actually talking about SDE but not realizing the origin of the artifact they were seeing.



Quote:
While true that LCD projectors typically aren't as sharp as their DLP counterparts, I've found that this isn't necessarily a rule. Optics, convergance, and processing all play into the sharpness equation. I've seen LCD projectors that were every bit as sharp as the sharpest DLP counterparts and vice versa. I still have yet to see any of the LCOS offerings that were as sharp as the best LCD or DLP pjs though, even though LCOS wins in almost every other area. That said, each technology has its strengths and weaknesses. While each of us has preferences, I think we would be doing the OP a disservice steering him away from a particular image technology. As was previously stated, his best bet is to get out to as many specialty Home Theater stores as possible (avoid the big box stores... it's just not worth it!), and actually putting some of the projectors through the paces. While I learned a lot reading reviews, and from forum posters here, I learned far more about what was important to me by actually seeing the pjs in action in the right kind of environment

Agreed that anyone should look at all possibilities and judge with their own eyes. At the $3-5K price point all technologies will have various pros and cons, and each manufacturer design will change the equation as well. All of us here are offering our opinions of these pros and cons, but naturally it's up to the end user making his/her decision to test out these displays to decide what looks best to him/her.
 

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I thought newer LCD panels were testing right around 80% fill factor though? Whereas, DLP is around 85%, and LCOS 90%, if memory serves me correctly. It's an advantage for sure, but actual visible results should not be that significant, since all displays have some SDE due to the fact that none are capable of 100% fill factor. If you could see the difference of 5-10%, then you should also perceive some haze on both the DLP and LCOS projectors as well.


I still think something else must have been impacting the picture on the 8500ub that you saw. I haven't seen the 8500ub, since it wasn't out when I was actively shopping, but I got to demo a 6500ub, back to back with an Optoma HD8200 and didn't see any noticeable haze on the 6500ub in comparison to the HD8200.
 
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