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Discussion Starter #1
I wasn't sure whether to post this in over $3K or under $3K... I'm posting this in under $3K but lets say that this question scales up to the entry rung of JVC LCoS projectors and maybe even the cheapest Sony 4K LCoS as well. But certainly not up to mega expensive projectors with exotic light engines.

Anyway, there's lots of talk at the mid-end around 4K display technologies, between native images, 2x shifting, 4x shifting, etc. But I see way less about HDR performance. I'm guessing that's because its less quantifiable, harder to compare through pictures, and general lack of standardization in HDR rendering/curves/etc.

So, that's the question: what projectors, from the ~$1K-$5K mark, give the best HDR performance in an ideal room? Some might say peak brightness matters most, others native contrast (as aided by low black levels), or maybe its even just which manufacturer best prioritized HDR and programmed in a good HDR setting.
 

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I wasn't sure whether to post this in over $3K or under $3K... I'm posting this in under $3K but lets say that this question scales up to the entry rung of JVC LCoS projectors and maybe even the cheapest Sony 4K LCoS as well. But certainly not up to mega expensive projectors with exotic light engines.



Anyway, there's lots of talk at the mid-end around 4K display technologies, between native images, 2x shifting, 4x shifting, etc. But I see way less about HDR performance. I'm guessing that's because its less quantifiable, harder to compare through pictures, and general lack of standardization in HDR rendering/curves/etc.



So, that's the question: what projectors, from the ~$1K-$5K mark, give the best HDR performance in an ideal room? Some might say peak brightness matters most, others native contrast (as aided by low black levels), or maybe its even just which manufacturer best prioritized HDR and programmed in a good HDR setting.


I'm curious about this as well. I think it will be the Epson HC 4000/ 5040ub based on WCG and contrast. But I'd like to know what others think.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #4
No projector is currently able to do hdr properly.
True, which is why I created this thread: to ascertain which ones fail least at it.

Its a lot like UHD and how that's a common topic in projectors but not for TV's. In TV's it'd be boring and pointless to discuss which models retain the most UHD detail... because the tech is "there" and well-settled. But in projectors there's still many different approaches to the problem, and so also lively discussion.

Likewise with HDR we still have a "problem", and so its actually interesting to evaluate and compare.
 

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True, which is why I created this thread: to ascertain which ones fail least at it.



Its a lot like UHD and how that's a common topic in projectors but not for TV's. In TV's it'd be boring and pointless to discuss which models retain the most UHD detail... because the tech is "there" and well-settled. But in projectors there's still many different approaches to the problem, and so also lively discussion.



Likewise with HDR we still have a "problem", and so its actually interesting to evaluate and compare.


Opinions vary.

A lot of people mention JVC as an example of how HDR can work on a projector. They don’t get very bright but then I never really thought brightness was the point of HDR— contrast was. In the public eye, HDR has kind of morphed into how bright a display can get because that’s what the predominant display technology (LCD flatscreen) does best. This is backed up by the fact that well implemented HDR isn’t just brighter it’s also DARKER. Which is why HDR is pretty much only suited to a completely dark, light controlled room.

I have two 4K DLP projectors here, both BenQ and both utilizing the .47 DMD. They both accept and display HDR content and they actually do a pretty good job of it. Which brings me to the next point: how the manufacturer handles HDR for their particular unit might be even more important than the capabilities of the projector. Most projectors are going to struggle with HDR in one way or another so where they decide to implement clipping points and remap color to fit that content within the confines of their particular unit becomes crucial. The BenQ HT2550 and TK800 are entry level 4K projectors with a fraction of the contrast performance of a JVC and yet what they’ve managed to do with their optimization would make you believe that the projector has more capability than it actually has. That’s good optimization. While I haven’t had the pleasure of demoing one of the most recent JVCs in a good room with quality content I’ve read a lot from those that have and it’s said to be pretty eye opening.
 
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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Opinions vary.

A lot of people mention JVC as an example of how HDR can work on a projector. They don’t get very bright but then I never really thought brightness was the point of HDR— contrast was. In the public eye, HDR has kind of morphed into how bright a display can get because that’s what the predominant display technology (LCD flatscreen) does best. This is backed up by the fact that well implemented HDR isn’t just brighter it’s also DARKER. Which is why HDR is pretty much only suited to a completely dark, light controlled room.

I have two 4K DLP projectors here, both BenQ and both utilizing the .47 DMD. They both accept and display HDR content and they actually do a pretty good job of it. Which brings me to the next point: how the manufacturer handles HDR for their particular unit might be even more important than the capabilities of the projector. Most projectors are going to struggle with HDR in one way or another so where they decide to implement clipping points and remap color to fit that content within the confines of their particular unit becomes crucial. The BenQ HT2550 and TK800 are entry level 4K projectors with a fraction of the contrast performance of a JVC and yet what they’ve managed to do with their optimization would make you believe that the projector has more capability than it actually has. That’s good optimization. While I haven’t had the pleasure of demoing one of the most recent JVCs in a good room with quality content I’ve read a lot from those that have and it’s said to be pretty eye opening.
This is exactly the kind of discussion I was looking for... considerations of contrast vs brightness vs target curve vs clipping points (maybe even color gamut?).

On clipping points: wouldn't the black crush issue on JVC's be pretty counter-productive towards HDR's goals?

EDIT TO ADD: I would definitely like to know how the VPL-VW285ES compares in these regards to JVC and Epson
 

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I'd suggest that a PJ with really high peak brightness should do best with HDR:


http://www.projectorcentral.com/Optoma-4K500.htm
http://www.projectorcentral.com/pdf/projector_spec_10060.pdf
http://www.projectorcentral.com/optoma-4K500-4K-installation-projector-review-1.htm

and:
https://www.tvspecialists.com/optoma-4k500-first-look-comparison/


This PJ appears to use the same basic components:

http://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/sim2-nero-4-uhd

and the BenQ LK970 is similar but with a laser light engine. However, IIRC the current firmware doesn't natively support HDR.
 

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Just keep in mind that the Epson units (4000/5040) are limited to 10.2/13gb so they cannot do 4K @ 60hz with HDR.

The Sony 285 shares this limitation as well.

Having seen most of the new XPR based DLP's I have to say they are lacking in almost all areas other than the resolution increase (which is most certainly there, especially on the larger DMD).


- Jason
 
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No projector is currently able to do hdr properly.

Depends on what you mean by "HDR" and "properly."

HDR10 supports up to 4,000 nits (1167 fL) of brightness and Dolby Vision supports up to 10,000 nits (2919 fL) Current HDR displays can go up to 1,000 nits (292 fL). So let's say you consider that "proper."

On a 120-inch screen (42.78sqft), you would need a 12,500 lumen projector to get 1000 nits. Barco has a fairly compact 11,800 lumen projector, the F90-4K13, which retails for about $35,000. However, it's a laser-phosphor projector, so its black levels are not going to be much better than a xenon model. Its stated contrast ratio is 2000:1 static and 10000:1 dynamic. On a our theoretical 120", 292 fL screen, this means a minimum black level of .0292 fL, which is nearly twice that of a sub-$1000 3000ish-lumen DLP without a dynamic iris.

Doing HDR in the cinema is a different story. Dolby Vision for home theater is different from Dolby Vision in the theater, so let's use that as an example. IMAX with Laser also advertises higher dynamic range (and believe me, it delivers).


The Christie Dolby Cinema projector and the Barco IMAX with Laser projector (based on the 60,000 lumen DP4K-60L I believe*) do 31 fL/106 nits and 22fL/75 nits at their respective screen sizes. Quoted contrast ratios are 1,000,000:1 for Dolby and at least 4000:1 for IMAX. You need just 1326 lumens to get a 31-fL image on a 120" 1.0 gain screen.

The aforementioned JVC RS420 beats IMAX and comes close to Dolby. The Epson 5040UB can match the IMAX's 1:4000+ native contrast ratio for under $3,000, but no 4K DLPs under $3,000 can at this time. If you drop down to 1080p, there are models that can match brightness and native contrast ratios (Sony HW65ES and HW45ES and Epson 3700) of the best cinema projectors, but won't take HDR inputs.


*A 1.9 aspect ratio IMAX with Laser image at, for example, Lincoln Square in NYC and the Metreon in SF is ~100ft x 52.6ft (5260 square feet) with dual projectors. 60,000 lumens x 2 / 5260 sqft = 22.8 fL.

Some helpful links:

https://www.techradar.com/news/why-its-hard-to-find-hdr-at-the-cinema

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ultra-hi-end-ht-gear-20-000/2918811-dolby-cinema-projectors.html
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Been a little time now, curious if the situation on this has changed at all. My assumption is that whatever projector has the highest native contrast (without a dynamic iris/etc) would be best at HDR, however it is also highly dependent on how the manufacturer maps the HDR signal to the imager output.
 

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Probably a very high lumen pj that is projecting a very very small screen (defeating the point of having a front projector a bit). Only way to keep the lumens high enough.

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Discussion Starter #14
Its over $3K, but maybe the UHZ65? Laser light means better brightness and higher color gamut, which I'm thinking could be a good match for HDR?
 

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Street price lower, but you're right. I'll open another thread over on the other section.
It could well become a problem shortly as many 4k UHD projectors with MSRP >3000 will be falling in street pricing down into the purchase range of the folks that frequent this forum. There wont be the interest in discussion in the >3000 forum or those discussions will have taken place a year before.

There will defiantly be a hysteresis effect for those with less money to spend seeking information.

Folks waiting for the cost of technology to drop into their price range, I would suggest frequent the >3000 forum and watch for trends.
:)
 

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BenQ LK952, 5000 lumens laser projector, HDR and dynamic laser dimming. 4k .47 DLP chip. I've seen prices less than the UHZ65.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
BenQ LK952, 5000 lumens laser projector, HDR and dynamic laser dimming. 4k .47 DLP chip. I've seen prices less than the UHZ65.
This is seriously interesting, and I've never heard of it before. WTH aren't they selling a home-theater marketed variant of this??
 
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