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Aiming the tweeters is not the same as aiming the whole speaker. The tweeters are only above 2500hz or so which means you are missing a lot of the (important?) frequency range.
Well, no. Of course it's not the same thing. (And don't question the rest of the frequency range below 2500Hz as important. Of course it is! :D ) Like I said, if I had a FA or fully adjustable, it might be a very different experience in my space.

Also from my reading aiming just the tweeters adversely the effects the overall sound quality too. So I hate to say this but your tests are not valid in this instance.
From your reading aiming just the tweeters adversely affects the overall sound quality? It might be for some. But from my own personal experience, that is not the case. I don't think that is universal.

Also where were the speakers located in relation to the listener/Dolby guidelines ? Mine were at exactly 45 deg forward and back and in line with Front L&R as per Dolby.
Mine are slightly inboard of the mains by a few inches thanks to joists - it was that or way outboard, so I went with the lesser of two evils. Fronts are at 45 degrees, rears are not - they are a little closer in, but well within the Dolby specification. It was a compromise between perfect angle and approaching a boundary.

My testing was done with just the 4 height speakers active. The only issue would be that they are bookshelf and not in-ceiling so you would expect the dispersion pattern to not be as uniform but they still have 90 deg dispersion on the horizontal plane and they were rotated so that plane was aligned with the MLP.
Same, only driving the heights to test.

Aimed straight down the sound was really good and anybody listening to it like that would be impressed.
Aimed at the listener was so much better - much more detail and clarity which is exactly as you would expect considering you are 45 deg off axis for one set and absolutely on-axis for the other.
I don't doubt it for your situation. Probably mine would too, but I'm going to start sounding like a broken record soon. :D Still, aesthetically - no thanks. I'm willing to sacrifice some of that quality for the aesthetic. And it's still a great experience, so can't complain really. It could be worse!

Assuming you are sitting with your Front L&R speakers at the recommended 30deg, would you toe them in 30 deg to point at you or turn then 15deg AWAY from you ? Thats exactly the difference between down-firing and aimed ceiling speakers. I rest my case :)
My Paradigms as primary mains are toed in, just a bit, maybe 5-10 degrees tops. And although I don't use them as mains, my Totems when used as such in experiments didn't seem to require toe-in, at least I couldn't really perceive differences in my space. And I'm trying to optimize things across 3 positions as it is typical for me to occupy not MLP. Sometimes, yes, but often I'm in one of the side seats. I do get your point, it's a very good one, but our experiences based on the gear that we each have, are different. Honestly, the Totems probably edge out the Paradigms in general, but I can't use the Paradigms as surrounds, so too late. :eek:
 

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Hi ALl!

Some one upthread enquired concerning in ceiling options. The Martin Logan Offerings include:

https://www.martinlogan.com/uploads/documents/manuals/manual-electromotion-ic-iw-r.pdf

https://www.martinlogan.com/en/product/vanquish

https://www.martinlogan.com/en/product/electromotion-r

I have 3 vanquish ceiling speakers from previous install and now am configuring my new basement theatre room. the ji=oists are 10.5" apart, so I would have to suspend/build enclosure for the Vanquish, which won't be visually ideal but I have the 3 speakers now. The 8" electromotions are pivotable as are the vanquish line and I am planning on 6 in ceiling speakers for a Dirac system.

Any experience on bleed through of suspending the ceiling speakers, which in my case is just insulation-planning on fabric of joists vs. a true ceiling? I was actually planning on three or four 8" electromotions and 2 or 3 of the Vanquish. Any advice much appreciated.

Thank you very much

FURY
 

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Front Height Speakers Straight Above TV???

I'm trying to figure out where to cut holes in my ceiling for 4 Atmos height speakers. I have a 65" 4K LG OLED TV. Many sites recommend a sitting distance of 6 - 8 feet. So I sit at my Main Listening Position with a tape measure, and put myself back 6' from the TV. Then, I point the tape measure vertical, and it is 6' from my listening ear to the ceiling.

Those Atmos speaker placement diagrams at dolby.com (I'll add them later when my post count increases) (in my case for 7.1.4) blithely show the viewer/listener/sofa way too far back from the flat panel for optimal viewing. That is, at their 45-degree angle, if my ear is 6' from the ceiling, then the Front Height speakers need to be 6' in front of me... and this puts them right above the TV set! This ends up very different than every Atmos blueprint, where the height speakers seem several feet back from the front wall of the room. Makes it seem like the only solution is to either get a 100" OLED, or a projector with a giant screen, so I can move the ideal viewing distance back, and thus the front height speakers back.

Anyone have a solution to the conflict between charts of ideal viewing distance, and the diagrams of Atmos speaker placement, the front height speakers in particular? This is only going to get worse with 8K...
 

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I'm trying to figure out where to cut holes in my ceiling for 4 Atmos height speakers. I have a 65" 4K LG OLED TV. Many sites recommend a sitting distance of 6 - 8 feet. So I sit at my Main Listening Position with a tape measure, and put myself back 6' from the TV. Then, I point the tape measure vertical, and it is 6' from my listening ear to the ceiling.

Those Atmos speaker placement diagrams at dolby.com (I'll add them later when my post count increases) (in my case for 7.1.4) blithely show the viewer/listener/sofa way too far back from the flat panel for optimal viewing. That is, at their 45-degree angle, if my ear is 6' from the ceiling, then the Front Height speakers need to be 6' in front of me... and this puts them right above the TV set! This ends up very different than every Atmos blueprint, where the height speakers seem several feet back from the front wall of the room. Makes it seem like the only solution is to either get a 100" OLED, or a projector with a giant screen, so I can move the ideal viewing distance back, and thus the front height speakers back.
Anyone have a solution to the conflict between charts of ideal viewing distance, and the diagrams of Atmos speaker placement, the front height speakers in particular? This is only going to get worse with 8K...
Yes, the solution is to not worry about charts. Sit where you want. That's the ideal viewing distance. :) (Keeping in mind, seating location does affect the audio experience as well, and what might be best for visuals is maybe not perfect for audio - compromises....) I sit between 8-9' from a 65" 4K TV, and supposedly I'm on the cusp of it not mattering according to charts. While charts give a guideline based on science/human limitations, it's not fitting for everyone. For me, there is a very noticeable difference at that distance between 4K and not 4K on my display, though plenty will argue and think I'm just telling myself that. :eek: Even if you were to lose the benefit by pulling back, so what? It's still going to look awesome. Of course, pulling back too much, then the TV starts looking small, so a larger display/projection might be a better choice. What do you have, a 10' ceiling or so? But yeah, looks like your math is correct.
 

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I'm trying to figure out where to cut holes in my ceiling for 4 Atmos height speakers. I have a 65" 4K LG OLED TV. Many sites recommend a sitting distance of 6 - 8 feet. So I sit at my Main Listening Position with a tape measure, and put myself back 6' from the TV. Then, I point the tape measure vertical, and it is 6' from my listening ear to the ceiling.

Those Atmos speaker placement diagrams at dolby.com (I'll add them later when my post count increases) (in my case for 7.1.4) blithely show the viewer/listener/sofa way too far back from the flat panel for optimal viewing. That is, at their 45-degree angle, if my ear is 6' from the ceiling, then the Front Height speakers need to be 6' in front of me... and this puts them right above the TV set! This ends up very different than every Atmos blueprint, where the height speakers seem several feet back from the front wall of the room. Makes it seem like the only solution is to either get a 100" OLED, or a projector with a giant screen, so I can move the ideal viewing distance back, and thus the front height speakers back.

Anyone have a solution to the conflict between charts of ideal viewing distance, and the diagrams of Atmos speaker placement, the front height speakers in particular? This is only going to get worse with 8K...
Don't worry about what the diagrams look like - just worry about the actual measurable recommendations.
Which in your case is Front Tops/Heights at 6' forward of MLP - the fact it puts them directly above the TV is immaterial (unless you can't physically mount them there).
 

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Yes, the solution is to not worry about charts. Sit where you want. That's the ideal viewing distance. :) (Keeping in mind, seating location does affect the audio experience as well, and what might be best for visuals is maybe not perfect for audio - compromises....) I sit between 8-9' from a 65" 4K TV, and supposedly I'm on the cusp of it not mattering according to charts. While charts give a guideline based on science/human limitations, it's not fitting for everyone. For me, there is a very noticeable difference at that distance between 4K and not 4K on my display, though plenty will argue and think I'm just telling myself that. :eek: Even if you were to lose the benefit by pulling back, so what? It's still going to look awesome. Of course, pulling back too much, then the TV starts looking small, so a larger display/projection might be a better choice. What do you have, a 10' ceiling or so? But yeah, looks like your math is correct.
Thanks Niterida. 9' ceiling. I'm happy to sit where I want, but clearly I need to commit to a certain spot, unless I want to keep cutting holes in my ceiling for the height speakers. Or mount the ceiling speakers on rails somehow. Maybe this is what the zen masters mean when they say "take the one seat"... Sounds like I just have to estimate some compromise. On the one hand, the future may hold a larger display so I could move back, on the other, 8K would move me closer in. Here's all those Atmos AUDIO charts, that blithely ignore the viewing distance VIDEO charts https://www.dolby.com/us/en/speaker-setup-guides/index.html

Two more ideas. First, that sacred Atmos diagram shows 35 to 55 degrees azimuth(?) to ceiling speaker okay. So, tan(35°) = 0.700. So if the ceiling is 6' above my head, I could put the speaker 4.2 feet in front of me (and behind). Second, I could pull the TV out from the wall, which would let me move the sofa further back into the room, and thus the height speakers further back into the room. Still not going to look anything like their diagram, I think that is for 16' diagonal screens with 720p projectors, but it gets closer to it.
 

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Baffling Question

If I get those Micca speakers, and cut holes in my ceiling, does my entire attic act as the cabinet? Or do people put the Miccas in cabinets, then install those into the attic? Was the Micca specifically designed for either specific application?
 

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Sounds like I just have to estimate some compromise. On the one hand, the future may hold a larger display so I could move back, on the other, 8K would move me closer in. Here's all those Atmos AUDIO charts, that blithely ignore the viewing distance VIDEO charts
While viewing distance is important, don't fixate so much on the resolution. Move yourself back a few feet. Watch your content. What do you think? Do you notice a difference at 6' really giving you a better experience and there is no sacrificing that? Does the TV appear too small? Well then, you've got a conundrum. You've gotta determine what the priority is.

Two more ideas. First, that sacred Atmos diagram shows 35 to 55 degrees azimuth(?) to ceiling speaker okay. So, tan(35°) = 0.700. So if the ceiling is 6' above my head, I could put the speaker 4.2 feet in front of me (and behind). Second, I could pull the TV out from the wall, which would let me move the sofa further back into the room, and thus the height speakers further back into the room. Still not going to look anything like their diagram, I think that is for 16' diagonal screens with 720p projectors, but it gets closer to it.
Sure, you could do that. Your geometry is different of course, but my TV sits exactly 1 ft. away from the wall on top of an AV cabinet, I sit like I mentioned 8-9ish feet from it (65" 4K), and with an 8' ceiling, ear 51" from ceiling given a "standard" couch, and I'm 5'9" average (??) human, this allows 45 degree placement of the fronts, placing them several feet away from the front wall (about 6' or so?), no where near above the main speakers. Looks very much like the Dolby diagram. I am not losing any sleep not sitting 6' away from the TV. And if I ever did get an 8K TV, I'd still be sitting in the same spot. Are you sitting really, really low to the floor?

You could also lose some altitude, probably at least a foot, by not using in-ceiling speakers and mounting box speakers instead, and with a good speaker be every bit as good or better than the in-ceilings. That is, if you can tolerate boxes hanging from the ceiling. A lot easier to move too, patch some small holes, rather than huge ones from in-ceiling cut outs, should you need to change things up. Like your rail idea comment - interesting, and flexible. :)

If I get those Micca speakers, and cut holes in my ceiling, does my entire attic act as the cabinet? Or do people put the Miccas in cabinets, then install those into the attic? Was the Micca specifically designed for either specific application?
You can do it either way. They will sound different in a box vs. not of course, but yes, they are designed to be used open like that. Some speakers do have a box built on, many do not. Speaker manufacturer would direct you on the appropriate volume for a box should they not offer one and should they indicate one can be used. Mine are open to the attic, the manufacturer does not make a box, but does advise on the appropriate volume for one, indicating it can be used both ways. But there's nothing above me, so that's not a concern. If you have nothing above you, I might be a little less concerned in your case as well. You would get more reinforcement of lower frequencies, may or may not matter, or suit your tastes - a friend of mine installed some Klipschs in a space at his home with no backers, then decided to try backers. that he made. They did indeed improve the lower extension, but he actually preferred them without the boxes. YMMV....

Still, they do offer some measure of protection against dust and debris, insulation, etc., that might settle on them over the long term.Something I myself don't worry about, but yeah, it's dusty up there! :eek:
 
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Or mount the ceiling speakers on rails somehow
This is a great idea and one I've been thinking about lately. I wonder how it could be done. Its a fantastic idea. Has anyone tried such a setup?
 

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This is a great idea and one I've been thinking about lately. I wonder how it could be done. Its a fantastic idea. Has anyone tried such a setup?
@Gary I used to have a track lighting system, it had a rail, and then several light fixtures, which you'd insert into the track, then rotate 90 degrees to lock into place. And this would spin metal tabs into each two parallel rails on either side of kind of the trench in the track strip that the fixture was inserted into, and these would provide the positive and negative electricity. As well as the mechanical stability, and the light also had some pivots on its arm so you could point it in any direction. However this would not hold a 5 or 10 or 15 pound speaker. But the rail assembly could certainly accept and send through the + and - of the audio system. I think someone who had a workshop and was handy could buy a track lighting rail off the shelf, but then fashion some speaker mount fixture that could connect a ceiling speaker mechanically and electrically. Or maybe someone would make it into a product.
 

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Thanks Jonas2! I'm not sure I can picture your numbers as adding up exactly, but you're sitting in it so it must be real. If your fronts are 6' back from your wall, and your sofa is 6' back from your fronts, then your sofa is 12' back from your wall. Do you have an LG OLED too? How high is the table it sits on?

I'm 5'10" and just on an average couch. I think its that I have a 9' ceiling. At 45° a 1' higher ceiling puts the fronts 1' further away from me. Conversely yes, mounting speakers lower down does the opposite and puts them less feet away but still at 45°.

Still, I'm not confident in hanging speakers off wall (ceiling?) board using molly bolts. I'd almost feel better about just screwing some 2x4's into the ceiling, into studs (joists), then in turn the 2x4 becomes a rail that I can move the speakers back and forth fairly readily as you describe. Not ideal for WAF though...

It sounds like the Miccas that are well regarded here, can just operate without a box, per manufacturer spec? If I can tolerate their interaction with the attic insulation. I think for bass maybe its okay to not get that from the ceiling but from the 7 or the 1 in the 7.1 drivers surrounding me on the ground.
 

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Thanks Jonas2! I'm not sure I can picture your numbers as adding up exactly, but you're sitting in it so it must be real. If your fronts are 6' back from your wall, and your sofa is 6' back from your fronts, then your sofa is 12' back from your wall. Do you have an LG OLED too? How high is the table it sits on?
So, more precisely (I measured it...;)), the fronts from front wall to tweeter are 70". The TV front is 12.5" away from the wall. Ears are seated at right around 121" from front wall, at 51" as measured seated, with a plumb line, accounting for sink into the cushion. :D Say, 3" or so from ear hole to front of eyeballs, 3"? Places panel about 8.79'. I was actually being quite precise when I located the speakers. So, the sofa is not 6' back from the fronts, that'd be 72". I've got 51" to the tweeter. 21" difference, approaching 2' obviously! That's a big difference. Yes, the math works, as does the layout, for my space.:)

Not an LG OLED, I've got a Sony Bravia standard LED. It sits on a 32" tall A/V cabinet.

I'm 5'10" and just on an average couch. I think its that I have a 9' ceiling.
Don't think you have, KNOW you have a 9' ceiling....might want to remeasure just to be sure....;) So, we're pretty close then, not exact, but we can't differ by more than a few inches in where our respective ears are, MINUS of course the couch.

At 45° a 1' higher ceiling puts the fronts 1' further away from me. Conversely yes, mounting speakers lower down does the opposite and puts them less feet away but still at 45°.

Still, I'm not confident in hanging speakers off wall (ceiling?) board using molly bolts. I'd almost feel better about just screwing some 2x4's into the ceiling, into studs (joists), then in turn the 2x4 becomes a rail that I can move the speakers back and forth fairly readily as you describe. Not ideal for WAF though...
Yeah, I hear that! And a box speaker could likely weigh more than the in-ceiling, depending on the speakers of course, so I get the concern about the weight. I've never mounted heavy to sheet rock suspended like that, so I'd be inclined to bolster the structure up above if needed. There is always a way. I'd start by marking out the "ideal" speaker location, then investigate what's above. Have you already been up there? Do you know what you're up against?

It sounds like the Miccas that are well regarded here, can just operate without a box, per manufacturer spec? If I can tolerate their interaction with the attic insulation. I think for bass maybe its okay to not get that from the ceiling but from the 7 or the 1 in the 7.1 drivers surrounding me on the ground.
Sure, you're gonna be feeding low frequencies to the subwoofer(s), so don't sweat too, too much the lower frequencies from the in-ceilings.
 

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Any notable drawbacks to using Proficient C801 speakers for Atmos? They seem like they would do well, but I don't see them mentioned even once.
My guess is Proficient might be more in the realm of audio installers, not mainstream for typical consumer audio. I'm always wary of this - brands that might be suggested by home designers or "audio" designers, that you never really hear of...tend to carry high profit margins while delivering less than stellar performance.

That said, on paper anyway, they certainly look they'd do just fine, and the best I can tell, Proficient makes pretty good stuff based on older commentary that I found on the forum here. So I'd say if their pricing is in line with other well-performing brands, then why not?
 
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At risk of flogging a dead horse....please indulge me:
I'm trying to decide between another pair of in-ceiling speakers doing ATMOS duty:
1) Micca M-8C, or
2) Yamaha NS-IW280CWH

I already have a pair of Yamaha NS-IW280CWH, and want to add a 2nd set.

Should I stick with Yamaha or would the Micca be better and then I just 'upgrade' my existing Yamaha to Micca later on.

Thanks!
 

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At risk of flogging a dead horse....please indulge me:
I'm trying to decide between another pair of in-ceiling speakers doing ATMOS duty:
1) Micca M-8C, or
2) Yamaha NS-IW280CWH

I already have a pair of Yamaha NS-IW280CWH, and want to add a 2nd set.

Should I stick with Yamaha or would the Micca be better and then I just 'upgrade' my existing Yamaha to Micca later on.

Don't know about the whole dual-tweeter thing for Atmos speakers, otherwise I'd be inclined to say stick with the Yamaha. Keeping in mind I have ZERO experience with either speaker, I'd go with the Micca (given they seem to get pretty good reviews), and swap out the Yamahas sooner rather than later. BUT if the Yamahas are doing a good job for you right now, stick with that. Point being, keep those 4 the same at the end of the day. Just my opinion. :eek:
 

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Hey guys, just picked my 7 main speakers for 7.2.4 Full focal stage, 948 and their in ceiling 300 to clear the projector screen. Couldn't afford the rest in focal, Definitive tech for rear 4 surrounds, and monoprice for atmos.

I'm looking at the monoprice carbon alpha in 8" They have a 15 degree canted version that i was thinking for the front atmos speakers. That way I could face them towards listening area. Any suggestions from those of you who have done lots of research or playing?

TIA
 

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Hey guys, just picked my 7 main speakers for 7.2.4 Full focal stage, 948 and their in ceiling 300 to clear the projector screen. Couldn't afford the rest in focal, Definitive tech for rear 4 surrounds, and monoprice for atmos.

I'm looking at the monoprice carbon alpha in 8" They have a 15 degree canted version that i was thinking for the front atmos speakers. That way I could face them towards listening area. Any suggestions from those of you who have done lots of research or playing?

TIA
If I read that correctly you are using an in-ceiling for your centre speaker ? If so that just won't work - better off running no centre or upgrade to an acoustic screen and put the centre behind it.

You want the 15deg angled height speakers front AND rear.

Matching speakers all round (and heights, but not as important) is the way to go if you can. Ditch the Focals and go all DefTech would be my recommendation. Or keep the Focal and just use any old cheap surrounds until you can afford to buy more Focals.
 

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The center is down firing towards seating position. That part works well, I've had something similar with previous bookshelf type speakers.

I'm just trying to figure out the atmos nitty gritty.

Thanks
 

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The center is down firing towards seating position. That part works well, I've had something similar with previous bookshelf type speakers.

I'm just trying to figure out the atmos nitty gritty.

Thanks
You need separation between heights and ear level speakers - centre speaker in ceiling just won't work.
Well it will work but it won't sound as good as it should or could.
 
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