AVS Forum banner

41 - 60 of 65 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
106 Posts
A little off topic but if the RC263 and other sealed centers begin to roll off at 100 Hz is that where the crossover in the AVR should be set or should it still be set at 80?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,381 Posts
A little off topic but if the RC263 and other sealed centers begin to roll off at 100 Hz is that where the crossover in the AVR should be set or should it still be set at 80?
Set it no lower than what the RC software suggests.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,629 Posts
A little off topic but if the RC263 and other sealed centers begin to roll off at 100 Hz is that where the crossover in the AVR should be set or should it still be set at 80?
The reference design of sealed centers is to begin rolling off at 100 Hz for an 80 Hz crossover setting in the AVR. However, you may want to change that 80 Hz crossover to suit your specific room environment and personal preferences. Again, there is no absolute right or wrong here. Experimenting with different AVR crossover settings will tell you which sounds best to your ears which is what matters most.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
105 Posts
Discussion Starter #44
With respect to center channels I used the Def Tech ProCenter 1000/CLR-2002/CLR-3000 (monster center speaker...), Jamo C-10-CEN, and Infinity RC263 before being fully happy with the C2 (I don't have the '+' version). After all of those though there was some depth and 'naturalness' that was lacking, even with the 70-pound subwoofer-equipped CLR-3000, and that's what led me to keep looking.

I tried the RC-263 head-to-head with the C2 and was actually quite happy with that one too but the C2 has a slightly bigger and wider sound in my room. I feel that the deeper extension helps with integration and the C2 particularly sounded better/fuller to my ears at low volumes, so I kept it. Had I not had the C2 on-hand I likely would have kept the RC263 and been happy enough but no question that the C2 suits me better. The 263 really opens up at medium-to-high volumes and while doesn't extend as deep, it does offer great clarity.

With respect to driving them I used my Onkyo receivers for many years and just recently switched to an Outlaw 5000 fed by a Denon 4500X. I do feel it's an improvement but is undoubtedly wayyyyyyyyyy into the realm of diminishing returns, a total 'fun' upgrade that only happened because someone was selling the Outlaw locally for silly cheap. My Onkyo NR-656 pushed the C2, Revel F35s (6-ohm), and Jamo S809 surrounds just fine to quite loud volumes and isn't technically 4-ohm rated.

I'll also add that across the front I've used Def Tech ProCinema 800s, SM350s, SM450s, Jamo C93s, Jamo S803s, Elac UB5s, JBL Studio 530s, Revel M16s, and now my Revel F35s. I've also used Jamo S809s and JBL Arena 180s in my living room so feel like it's a good smattering of flavors. My ear definitely prefers neutral, if not slightly treble-leaning, speakers and has zero tolerance for mud and perceived missing detail.

Appreciate your feedback and the comparison between the center speakers! Exactly the kind of feedback I value since it adds to the data points / perspectives that I can use to make a final decision.

You hit the nail on the head regarding the additional depth and "naturalness" / natural sound you were seeking. For me, I think it was after recently hooking up my Paradigm LCR450 center again temporarily after having had the RP-440C hooked up so long that I wondered if I should consider upgrading my center.
Dialogue clarity is not an issue, but I was thinking something less bright and fuller than the RP-440C might sound better to me (not that the RP-440C is in any way a bad center speaker by any means).

If we did not have spiking COVID all over, I would go to some store(s) and demo some center speakers in person.
I may try the Crutchfield online speaker audition / demo tool to see if it helps compare some center speakers... I have Sennheiser HD580 headphones (hardly used them over the years) that I could use for that. I just have to figure out which comparable Sennheiser model to select in the tool options since HD580 is not among the options...
 

·
Registered
75" Samsung Q80R QLED, Denon AVR3300, Revel F36, C25, W263, FV15HP x 2, ATV4K, Sony Blu Ray, Harmony
Joined
·
8,257 Posts
Appreciate your feedback and the comparison between the center speakers! Exactly the kind of feedback I value since it adds to the data points / perspectives that I can use to make a final decision.

You hit the nail on the head regarding the additional depth and "naturalness" / natural sound you were seeking. For me, I think it was after recently hooking up my Paradigm LCR450 center again temporarily after having had the RP-440C hooked up so long that I wondered if I should consider upgrading my center.
Dialogue clarity is not an issue, but I was thinking something less bright and fuller than the RP-440C might sound better to me (not that the RP-440C is in any way a bad center speaker by any means).

If we did not have spiking COVID all over, I would go to some store(s) and demo some center speakers in person.
I may try the Crutchfield online speaker audition / demo tool to see if it helps compare some center speakers... I have Sennheiser HD580 headphones (hardly used them over the years) that I could use for that. I just have to figure out which comparable Sennheiser model to select in the tool options since HD580 is not among the options...
There is so much of what we hear from a speaker that depends on its interaction with the room, that I personally find listening to the "sound" of speakers on headphones is rather irrelevant. Literally, the majority of sound we hear from speakers in a room is reflected sound, so the dispersion width and characteristic of how the off axis sound compares to on axis simply cannot be even remotely replicated by listening to a recording of a speaker on headphones. I just don't believe this is helpful in any way, honestly.

I suppose general tonality might be discernible to some extent, but measurements would tell you this just as easily IMO, and perhaps more accurately.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ia1z

·
Registered
75" Samsung Q80R QLED, Denon AVR3300, Revel F36, C25, W263, FV15HP x 2, ATV4K, Sony Blu Ray, Harmony
Joined
·
8,257 Posts
A little off topic but if the RC263 and other sealed centers begin to roll off at 100 Hz is that where the crossover in the AVR should be set or should it still be set at 80?
Room correction will detect the -3dB point and attempt to set your crossover there, and it will probably be lower than 80 Hz due to room and boundary gain. I'd be very surprised if automatic room correction didn't set crossover on the RC263 at 40-60 Hz, so 80 should be fine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
765 Posts
There is so much of what we hear from a speaker that depends on its interaction with the room, that I personally find listening to the "sound" of speakers on headphones is rather irrelevant. Literally, the majority of sound we hear from speakers in a room is reflected sound, so the dispersion width and characteristic of how the off axis sound compares to on axis simply cannot be even remotely replicated by listening to a recording of a speaker on headphones. I just don't believe this is helpful in any way, honestly.

I suppose general tonality might be discernible to some extent, but measurements would tell you this just as easily IMO, and perhaps more accurately.
Yes, you can get general tonality from the Crutchfield and other speaker comparisons when listening through headphones. It does help to have used the headphones enough to know the characteristics of the headphones to take that into comparison. Crutchfield went to great lengths to make their comparison tool as good as they could; it really has been quite an endeavor.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
117 Posts
I have the crossover set at 100hz. The 9 speaker array I employ does not do HT bass well. A sub is a must. I let the sub do a little more work from 80 to 100hz and let the other speakers "concentrate" on upper bass and mid-range. When I watch movies I do not want to think about the sound, I want to be immersed into the scene. For music, that's another story entirely as the center, sub and surrounds are not used. I just think it is easy to overthink the center and surrounds in a HT setup. And, I went from a 5.25 two speaker 2-way center to a 6.5 3-way. Any difference? Not much. The center is mainly dialogue. And the dialogue is mostly droning. Sometimes there is some shouting. Sometimes some background music. If you hear the bullet in the center that means someone got shot in the head.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zorba922

·
Registered
Joined
·
105 Posts
Discussion Starter #49
Update:
Since my other speakers are 8 Ohms and the Emotiva C2+ and Monolith THX-365C centers are both 4 Ohms and the fact that the Emotiva was also larger than I wanted (as well as a slightly heavier than my speaker stand's limit), I was a bit hesitant (as you noticed above) and kept going back and forth in my mind.

Anyway, maybe everything happens for a reason (e.g. my hesitancy delaying my decision):
I had not yet decided what to get and then found a deal on a pre-owned but fully tested and fully functional, gloss black SVS Ultra center (8 Ohms as most of you know already) with a full 30 day return policy "for any reason". The seller is highly respected / well known within the audiophile community and tests everything they sell thoroughly, so that gives me added peace of mind.
With shipping, the Ultra center was essentially the same price (a few bucks over $400 shipped + tax) as the other 2 center speakers above (albeit the SVS is pre-owned and the others would have been new).
I figured what do I have to lose... I could always return it if the sound is not a step up / improvement over my current centers.

I will post my thoughts once I receive the Ultra and get it hooked up (since I still own my other centers).
In the meantime, thanks again to everyone who posted here.

I also bought 4 brand new Atmos height speakers (on sale); nothing fancy but they should work well.
Now all I need is a high quality (preferably 9.2) Atmos receiver. Ideally I want something that will sonically rival my Newcastle R-972 (42 lbs and built like a tank), with fantastic sound, effortless performance and great room correction from the award-winning Trinnov company. If only it supported Atmos and dts X...

I was initially going to wait, but decided that if I can get a decent deal now for a quality Atmos and dts X receiver, I would bite the bullet now and enjoy it now - life is short (relatively speaking)...
Keeping my eyes peeled... Have a few receiver candidates in mind, but weighing them...

In the meantime, thanks again to all those who shared great center channel speaker recommendations!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,381 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
263 Posts
Some other very good centres to consider:
Paradigm Premier 600C
Wharfedale EVO4.C
PSA MTM-210C
What are your current speakers and subs?
I second the Wharfedale EVO 4.C. It's a phenomenal speaker. I got it last week and watched a few movies with it. It's a bit on the warm side. So, its easy on the ears. It's a beast, size and weight wise though. 30+ pounds, height is 10', the depth is 13.5' without the grill, and the width at the widest is 29.5'.
 

·
Registered
Sony X900H / Onkyo TX-NR777 / Sony UBP-X700 Blu-ray / Emotiva B1s/C1 / SVS PB2000
Joined
·
280 Posts
With respect to center channels I used the Def Tech ProCenter 1000/CLR-2002/CLR-3000 (monster center speaker...), Jamo C-10-CEN, and Infinity RC263 before being fully happy with the C2 (I don't have the '+' version). After all of those though there was some depth and 'naturalness' that was lacking, even with the 70-pound subwoofer-equipped CLR-3000, and that's what led me to keep looking.

I tried the RC-263 head-to-head with the C2 and was actually quite happy with that one too but the C2 has a slightly bigger and wider sound in my room. I feel that the deeper extension helps with integration and the C2 particularly sounded better/fuller to my ears at low volumes, so I kept it. Had I not had the C2 on-hand I likely would have kept the RC263 and been happy enough but no question that the C2 suits me better. The 263 really opens up at medium-to-high volumes and while doesn't extend as deep, it does offer great clarity.

With respect to driving them I used my Onkyo receivers for many years and just recently switched to an Outlaw 5000 fed by a Denon 4500X. I do feel it's an improvement but is undoubtedly wayyyyyyyyyy into the realm of diminishing returns, a total 'fun' upgrade that only happened because someone was selling the Outlaw locally for silly cheap. My Onkyo NR-656 pushed the C2, Revel F35s (6-ohm), and Jamo S809 surrounds just fine to quite loud volumes and isn't technically 4-ohm rated.

I'll also add that across the front I've used Def Tech ProCinema 800s, SM350s, SM450s, Jamo C93s, Jamo S803s, Elac UB5s, JBL Studio 530s, Revel M16s, and now my Revel F35s. I've also used Jamo S809s and JBL Arena 180s in my living room so feel like it's a good smattering of flavors. My ear definitely prefers neutral, if not slightly treble-leaning, speakers and has zero tolerance for mud and perceived missing detail.
I am looking at ordering the C2 and wondering what you have the crossover set at for it? I need to have my center close to the wall (within a couple inches) and they told me if I set the crossover at 80Hz then the rear port should be relatively unused and would be fine that close to the wall.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,038 Posts
I am looking at ordering the C2 and wondering what you have the crossover set at for it? I need to have my center close to the wall (within a couple inches) and they told me if I set the crossover at 80Hz then the rear port should be relatively unused and would be fine that close to the wall.
I've run it as low as 40Hz but found 70-80 to be optimal in my room. Currently 80 since my Denon doesn't have 70 as an option.
 

·
Registered
Sony X900H / Onkyo TX-NR777 / Sony UBP-X700 Blu-ray / Emotiva B1s/C1 / SVS PB2000
Joined
·
280 Posts
I've run it as low as 40Hz but found 70-80 to be optimal in my room. Currently 80 since my Denon doesn't have 70 as an option.
Good to know, thank you. I currently have the C1 but am pushed back further from it our new space and feel like I need a bigger front stage. I just don’t want to set the crossover too high and lose some of the quality of the speaker. Glad to know you think it sounds good set at this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19,886 Posts
With shipping, the Ultra center was essentially the same price (a few bucks over $400 shipped + tax) as the other 2 center speakers above
If SVS were not the ruthless marketing geniuses they are, $400 might be a fair market price for that Ultra center, imo.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
105 Posts
Discussion Starter #56 (Edited)
Quick update:
In addition to the Ultra center (arriving tomorrow), I also bought 4 Atmos upfiring add on speakers (great deal so figured would pick them up and have them when I got my receiver).
I also ended up breaking down (in order to get Atmos and DTS X etc) and buying an open box (unused in fact) 9.2 channel Denon X3600H receiver with all accessories and box from an authorized Denon dealer (great deal so could not resist). I was looking for at least 9.2 channels (not 7.2) to get 5.1.4 Atmos. Also since the X3600H has 11 pre-outs, I can move to 7.1.4 with a 2 channel external amp - if and when the time comes).
Looking forward to finally joining the Atmos and DTS X party (also curious to see how IMAX Enhanced content looks - new TV also supports it).

The 77" OLED TV purchase late November led me down a rabbit hole as they say: new Sanus center speaker stand, 2 new 4K BD / SACD / DVD-A players, new receiver, new center speaker and 4 new Atmos add-on speakers), but I am looking forward to getting the most out of the TV from an overall audio and visual home theater experience.
I am not even counting the recent furniture TV stand we purchased since we were happy to get a new more elegant one anyway, even if we had not purchased a new TV.
Not not that dts Master HD or Dolby True HD content does not already look and sound good with just the new TV and BD player and my current receiver and center.
At least I got everything on sale (Black Friday deals for the TV, BD players and Atmos speakers; open box but essentially new receiver and pre-owned but in great shape and fully tested Ultra center; the last 2 items were from 2 of the most prominent sellers and the BF deals from major retailers with both a B&M and online presence).

Now the wait till I get the center and receiver.
Will post my feedback on the center once I get it to close the loop. Thanks again all!
 

·
Registered
75" Samsung Q80R QLED, Denon AVR3300, Revel F36, C25, W263, FV15HP x 2, ATV4K, Sony Blu Ray, Harmony
Joined
·
8,257 Posts
Congrats on the Denon 3600, they are not easy to find. Great AVR for a great price even at MSRP.

As far as the upfiring Atmos....I haven't personally tried them but I think they perform poorly for that role. I'd skip them and go with actual overhead speakers if your going to do Atmos.

When I think of upfiring Atmos, it makes me think of taking your LCR, turning them around backwards and letting them reflect off the wall........
 
  • Like
Reactions: ia1z

·
Registered
Joined
·
105 Posts
Discussion Starter #58
Congrats on the Denon 3600, they are not easy to find. Great AVR for a great price even at MSRP.

As far as the upfiring Atmos....I haven't personally tried them but I think they perform poorly for that role. I'd skip them and go with actual overhead speakers if your going to do Atmos.

When I think of upfiring Atmos, it makes me think of taking your LCR, turning them around backwards and letting them reflect off the wall........
Thanks! Since I better not quote the exact price (I know avsforums as a whole tends to discourage price talk), I will say I got the receiver for almost 43% off the last known official price / MSRP from an article from mid 2020. Anyway I am simply looking forward to getting it and hooking it up.

Re. the upfiring Atmos speakers: Understood; I appreciate the feedback. I knew going in that this is not the preferred / ideal approach. However, people have very good things to say, even with them upfiring on top of the fronts and rears.
My HT area ceiling does not allow for easy speaker mounting. That being said, regardless, I would not want to mount anything to the ceiling anyway - the same reason that I would not mount the TV to the wall.
We're using the TV's included stand on top of our new furniture stand; the TV is at an almost perfect height that both my wife and I prefer for an optimal viewing experience anyway. :)
These speakers have decent reviews for the same upfiring application, but I will post my experience either way. I am optimistic that they will add a nice element to the surround sound experience when viewing Atmos content.
So long as my regular surround sound experience (without the Atmos speakers even) is at least as good with the X3600H as with my Newcastle Trinnov R-972, that alone would be a win in my book (since I was a bit concerned if I was downgrading in terms of sonic quality given the surround sound experience generated based on how effective the room correction system is).
It will be interesting to see how the 2 receivers compare. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,339 Posts
A little off topic but if the RC263 and other sealed centers begin to roll off at 100 Hz is that where the crossover in the AVR should be set or should it still be set at 80?
I typically set the crossover points at least 20Hz above whatever the low frequency response spec for the speaker happens to be. Specs for that speaker say it goes down to 52Hz, so 80Hz crossover should be perfect.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
105 Posts
Discussion Starter #60 (Edited)
Quick update - Received my SVS Ultra center yesterday packed in very thick custom molded foam and with cardboard panel over the grill area, so the damage (not that bad anyway) on one corner of the shipping box did absolutely nothing to the speaker.

At first the volume seemed very low with Netflix 5.1 DD content and I was a bit concerned (since it SEEMED - the operative word being seemed] significantly lower in output than I RECALLED - operative word being recalled - my other two older centers (Klipsch RP-440C and Paradigm LCR450) being.
However I then compared the Ultra to the my Paradigm LCR450 with the same exact Netflix content (same scene in fact) and the volume was about the same (lower than I recalled - guess I must have been watching a lot of 4K BDs with Dolby True HD audio and dts Master HD audio recently which are all significantly louder).

I hooked the Ultra back up and watched two 4K Blu Rays - one with Dolby True HD audio and the other with dts Master HD audio. Wow what a difference. MUCH louder and those really allowed the Ultra to shine:
While it is obviously early, so far I felt the Ultra had nuances the other centers did not (no doubt in [large] part due to its 3-way design). Also felt it was like a balance between the other two, aside from the extra nurances, as well as a detailed, balanced and crisp sound signature, albeit without sounding bright and definitely not dull.

I did not bother to rerun Trinnov room calibration on my current receiver again to adjust for the Ultra since I am receiving my Denon AVR-X 3600H AVR today (the seller is about one hour away, so even though it got picked up just yesterday late afternoon by FedEx, it will be delivered today already, so I will have it before the weekend!).
So I will wait to hook the Ultra up to new receiver and run Audyssey calibration with all speakers hooked up (ordered some 14 gauge OFC speaker wire for the 4 upfiring Atmos speakers; I already have an unopened reel of 50 feet 12 gauge [12AWG being overkill in hindsight] wire but it will not be enough).

I will report back again after trying the Ultra with the X3600H (after calibration as noted). Will also compare the Ultra to the LCR450 and RP-440C again, but with the X3600H this time.

PS: Interestingly the package is 'Direct signature required'. I thought that signature requirements were for the most part being suspended during the COVID-19 pandemic. I called FedEx yesterday to confirm since I had other packages last year with signature required and they did not bother trying to get a signature. The representative was very friendly, but I am still not 100% of their answer. In any case, I will be ready and have my mask by the front door.
 
41 - 60 of 65 Posts
Top