[DarkSuperman]

I am new to the AVS Forum and this is my first post here. This site has taught me a great deal since I made the mistake of assuming an LCD HDTV would handle SDTV as well as my CRT TV. Now after six months I am a little more educated, a little less embarrassed and ready to try my luck with PJ's. I had a couple of questions I was hoping someone here could help me with. I am trying to find the BEST projector given my mostly 480i source content. I have scoured this forum for about a week now and I think I have learned enough to be able to ask the right questions.


Source Content

50% - Last gen, 480i video games (Sega Saturn & Dreamcast thru S-Video, PS2 thru Component)

25% - DVD's (Either played through my laptop or prog-scan DVD player)

20% - SD CableTV (Analog, not digital but I can upgrade if necessary for PQ)

5% - HD Content (May purchase HDTV Tuner & XBox 360 in future)


Priorities

1. PQ and quality de-interlacing of 480i content

2. Image Size of at least 98" in 4:3 (or 120" in 16:9)

3. Ability to buy extended bulb/lamp warranty

4. Cost - Want to stay under $700 including warranty but will pay more for quality de-interlacing


At first I thought a good 480p like the IN72 would provide the best value for what I needed. Then I saw a Mitsu HD1000u that handled what I needed really well but wondered if the extra cost for 720p was necessary for what I needed. Further, as good as the 480i content looked on the Mitsu, could it look better on a 480p projector since the native res is closer to the source? Then I started reading about older, native 4:3 480p PJ's and really started to get confused because I could get a used Optoma (w/ a Faroudja processor maybe), but would run the risk of having to replace the bulb. So I guess I need help on the following:


Would I get the same level of PQ on a 480p PJ as I would on a 720p PJ given 480i source material?

Would a native 4:3 PJ give better PQ displaying 480i content than a native 16:9 PJ?


Any help you guys could provide would be greatly appreciated. Also, if I missed any important considerations, please let me know.


Thanks

 

[cavu]



Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSuperman /forum/post/0


I am trying to find the BEST projector given my mostly 480i source content.

InFocus IN72 for $250 less than your budget meets ALL your criteria and more!

 

[thr33m]

I just got my in72 and it's doing fantastic!

 

[DarkSuperman]

After going through most of the IN72 thread here I was about 95% sold on the IN72 (best value hands down) but then I saw the Mitsu in person and just wondered whether or not the great PQ was due to the PJ at 720p.

 

[bud16415]

My situation is very close to yours. I can't speak to the IN72 as I haven't owned one but if a good deal of your usage will be 480 and SD etc I would highly recommend the Sharp XR10X.


I have linked in my signature a few threads and photo sites showing and talking about my setup. XGA is a good compromise IMHO given what you are wanting. And in your $700 price range. It does an excellent job of taking 480p material and displaying it in XGA. Comes with 2 cables and sealed optics.


I run all my inputs into a cheep DVD player/burner and it acts as a hub plus a progressive player and a recorder. One component out to projector that way and many selectable inputs.


I would recommend getting digital cable in SD the signal I have found is better but analog SD looks pretty good at 120 also.


This is SD big



Regular DVD




Big 4:3 SD

 

[FlyingGimp]

What is your intended screen width and seating distance? Aside from just resolving more detail in HD sources, higher res reduces the point at which you see SDE. While the exact point is subjective, I believe most agree that sitting closer than 2x the screen width is the point at which 480p pjs start to have serious problems with SDE.


Aside from that, I'd choose based on high likely those HD tuner and 360 purchases are. I think for many of us after seeing HD, we actively start rationalizing the cost of more HD sources (I'm paying $0.XX an hour to watch this, so why not pay $0.XX + $0.05 per hour, etc.).

 

[bud16415]

FlyingGimp is right screen size and seating distance are factors to be considered and also ambient light, ceiling height and throw length. Also the personal preference between DLP and LCD units.


As to SDE and seating distance if we agree 480 looks good at 2X and 720 works at 1X and my personal experience with XGA is it looks great at 1.5X. XGA is 1024x768 but to put it into 16:9 unites it's 1024x576 half way between. I personally don't like sitting closer than 1.5 no matter how good the image is because it's outside my comfortable field of vision. I find my eyes moving around a lot watching a movie. The exception to that in my case might be games where I would be going for that feeling of being surrounded in the image.


One of the reasons I like XGA and the only people I would suggest it to are people that have reason they still enjoy a full screen image but want the option of wide screen and also HD. A projector like the Sharp does a very good job of scaling in HD and it's very hard to tell it's not 720 HD

 

[gwlaw99]

If you sit more than 2x screen widths away the Infocus In72

If you sit less than 2x screen widths away Mitsubishi HD1000

 

[CMRA]

I'm going to promote a different angle.


The OP requested 480i, ie, SD interlaced. That's 640x480 interlaced.

My experience says CRT still offers the least offensive image with such a low res signal.

These Pjs go for a song nowadays so money won't be an issue.


Now for my 2 cents. OP refocus your 5% position. 1080p/1080i/720p signal is where you want to be. Your eyeballs will thank me. Many modern budget digital PJs do well here.

Good hunting.

 

[cavu]



Quote:
Originally Posted by CMRA /forum/post/0


I'm going to promote a different angle.

Quote:
The OP requested 480i, ie, SD interlaced. That's 640x480 interlaced.

That's only true with a 4:3 image, With a 16:9 image it is 854x480 ! The actual DVD 480i source is 720x480 but it is never displayed that way.

 

[DarkSuperman]

bud16415,


I think it was your setup that I saw a while ago that started me thinking about a native 4:3 PJ. My only concern there would be getting a used one and then having the bulb go out on me. I didn't look a lot but after reading some of the Sharp thread, i will look around a little bit more to check the availability of a new unit.

 

[DarkSuperman]

Thanks guys for all of your help. I am really feeling better about narrowing my choices.


I thought about the seating distance issue yesterday and since my ideal setup will seat around 12' from where the screen will be, that will leave me with an 8' image for the XGA PJ to combat SDE. Just about the screen size I am trying to achieve. If I the largest image size I can have with a 480p PJ is 6' so as not to have SDE, I can't imagine the increased PQ would be worth it. Am I making the right assumptions here?


If I am, I am thinking that the XGA may be a good compromise between the 480p and 720p 16:9 PJ's. From the pictures above, I am thinking that it would handle SD material just as well, if not better than the 720p Mitsu I saw in person. Plus with a native 4:3 res, shouldn't it produce a brighter, larger 4:3 image than a native 16:9 res PJ?


If I am still on the right track, the XGA will be the way I go. Now to find it!! Since this PJ will be will be set up in my personal HT (aka the basement), lighting control will not be an issue. Maybe we will upgrade to a 720p for the living room. Probably will get the HD bug soon. It looked great on the Mitsu!


Third question if I may, Do you guys have any recommendations if I can't find the Sharp XR10X? I wanted to get a bulb warranty for any model I get just to ensure I get good usage from my investment. Am I being too paranoid or should I go for a newer model that can handle 480i content as well as this one can?


Thanks again guys!!!

 

[cavu]



Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSuperman /forum/post/0


If I the largest image size I can have with a 480p PJ is 6' so as not to have SDE, I can't imagine the increased PQ would be worth it. Am I making the right assumptions here?

No.

Quote:
it would handle SD material just as well, if not better than the 720p Mitsu I saw in person.

Both a 576 and a 720 will suffer from scaling artifacts versus a 480p unit.

Quote:
with a native 4:3 res, shouldn't it produce a brighter, larger 4:3 image than a native 16:9 res PJ?

No.


Check out this 480p projector ... an InFocus SP4805 (click on pic for full size image). Look at the black levels. look at the skin tones. Note there are no washed out/flared white areas. The IN72 is even a little better than this.

 

[dslatlast]

A key thing to bear in mind is not so much scaling performance, but rather deinterlacing performance.


Scaling can be done farily effectively on a frame by frame spatial basis with relatively simple alogorithms, on the other hand, deinterlacing requires both temporal and spatial considerations by the hardware. As such, poor deinterlacing performance is far more of a practical performance limitation than poor scaling. In the past, this is where the Faroudja DCDi chipset in certain projectors, scalers and DVD players has really helped improve SD performance. The IN72 uses the Pixelworks DNX chipset that comes close to the Faroudja performance in certain deinterlacing tests (better in some, worse in others). I have heard that the Mitsu 1000U does not excel on 480i signals.


This drove me to get an IN72 since the majority of what I currently watch is SD (SD-TV, XBOX, PS2 and DVDs). I don't see myself jumping to HD TV just yet since I have a lot of time and money invested in a 3 room DirecTV TIVO setup with multi-room viewing etc. I just don't want to give that up just for HD in one room. Not to mention the additional expense of the HD hardware.


I was very close to getting an HD70 since Visual Apex have an amazing deal that includes a free screen, 3yr warranty and 2yr bulb warranty. However, the reduced brightness (I do not have good light control in the room that I'll be using), lesser SD performance and greater cost made me opt for the IN72 for the time being. Once the bulb for the IN72 needs to be replaced, I'll probably go for a 720p then, however, right now the IN72 seems to work very well (only received it yesterday).


-D-

 

[jwervel16]

Hey all -- I'm in a very similar boat myself. I've had my eye on the IN72 for a while, considering I'm still heavily in the SD/ED world (DVDs, NTSC TV, older games).


My big concern is de-interlacing lag for 480i video games. I'm looking for a PJ that can display older systems from the Gamecube back to the SNES without any noticeable latency. I'll be playing time-sensitive platformers, shooters, rhythm games, etc, in addition to Wii and PS2 at 480p.


So, does the IN72 perform well in the fast de-interlacing department? I want Mario to jump as soon as I tell him to.

I figured that a native 480p PJ might do well with 480i upscaling. Am I correct?


I hope someone here has hands-on experience with this. Thanks to the OP for making the thread, by the way!

 

[cavu]



Quote:
Originally Posted by jwervel16 /forum/post/0


does the IN72 perform well in the fast de-interlacing department?

The Pixelworks deinterlacer in the IN72 (and, likewise, the Faroudja deinterlacer in the SP4805) are both excellent.

 

[jwervel16]

Hi cavu,


Well, I'm glad to hear that! May I ask you to clarify, though -- do you mean that its deinterlacing is excellent with picture quality, or with sheer processing speed? Would there be any sort of delay for gaming as there is on most LCD TVs?


I really appreciate your help.

 

[cavu]



Quote:
Originally Posted by jwervel16 /forum/post/0


Would there be any sort of delay for gaming as there is on most LCD TVs?

I'm afraid I am not a gamer and don't know for sure.

I have always assumed that LCDs demonstrated lag simply because of the slow response of the display itself and have not considered that the deinterlacing process itself would cause a noticeable delay.


Send a PM to krasmuzik - he will know.

 

[ChrisWiggles]



Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkSuperman /forum/post/0


Would I get the same level of PQ on a 480p PJ as I would on a 720p PJ given 480i source material?

Assuming quality scaling, no. 720p or 1080p display will give significant advantages.

 

[jwervel16]

Well, I PM'd krasmusik -- he seemed pretty positive about 480i processing time, but said he hasn't tried many newer time-sensitive video games.


Anyone else here ever plugged in a Super Nintendo, PS2, Wii, NES, Gamecube, or another 480i device to the IN72? And is there any input delay compared to an old CRT tube?


I'm itching to place an order for one of these...