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Hello everybody,


Let me start off by introducing myself-- I am a lurker, one of millions who needs the advice of some technically savy A/V individuals.


I have a few questions to ask.


1.) what are the newest plasma models released either at the end of 08, or beginning of 09 which would house to a pro gaming experience?


2.) based on what I have researched on these forums and other sources, the Panny 800U and the Pioneer 111FD have the lowest input lag of any plasma display - is that true? and if so, between the two which has the lowest input lag?


3.) I know the Kuro elite has wonderful color, but I am a gamer.. I only care about having the best gaming experience possible, PQ is second to that. It is clear the Kuro has the best PQ and dark levels on the market of any plasma, but if the response time(input lag) on the Panny is better id like to know from the pros.
 

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I do not know how relevant this is, not sure when it was written. But I found this at this site .

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Gaming Lag in Plasma TVs

Lag. When mentioned alongside gaming, one tends to think "Internet gaming lag", which is different. Let us explain.


Like all other types of HDTVs, plasma TVs have one native resolution, 720p, 1080i, or 1080p. The problem is not all games created for today's gas-burning consoles have resolutions as high as these. Most games range from 480p to 720p. Because of this disparity, your plasma TV needs to "upscale" the resolution of the input (namely, the game). This is where lag occurs.


According to the AV Science Forum:

The average HDTV seems to lag roughly 6 frames, or 1/10th of a second when processing 480i material...Casual gamers probably will not notice a lag this small...The most affected gamers will be those who play ultra-time sensitive games such rhythm games, sports games with swinging/kicking meters, shooters, or fighting games.


To help demystify the problem, IGN called out to its readers to submit feedback on laggy HDTVs. One reader sent in images showing a telling disparity in the Halo 2 game screens, one on a CRT and the other an HDTV ( see the article ). Though he was using a DLP, the images will impress upon you the severity of lag in some TVs.


Solving LagThere are many options to eliminate lag, but some of them cost a fortune. You can buy products that upscale/convert the resolution from your games (listed quite extensively at the AV Science forum, see the first post at this thread ).


For those still looking out for the right plasma TV to complement their gaming needs, try to buy a model with a Game Mode. This feature will speed up the upscaling process, though not completely eliminate the lag.


However, if you're loyal to plasma TVs when it comes to playing games, consider yourself lucky -- DLP TVs are the worst type for gaming due to their higher lag times.

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Hope this helps.
 

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I have always seen the Kuro's measured at 40-50ms with game/game pref on--certainly nothing spectacular and about on par with most modern LCD's "Game modes". Surprisingly, I have yet to see a serious evaluation of an '08 or '09 Panasonic running the cloned clock tests. They supposedly have a reputation of being the best televisions in this regard, but I have never seen the hard evidence to confirm it. I have seen offhanded remarks about 16-30ms.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregf70 /forum/post/16380400


I do not know how relevant this is, not sure when it was written. But I found this at this site .

----
Gaming Lag in Plasma TVs

Lag. When mentioned alongside gaming, one tends to think "Internet gaming lag", which is different. Let us explain.


Like all other types of HDTVs, plasma TVs have one native resolution, 720p, 1080i, or 1080p. The problem is not all games created for today's gas-burning consoles have resolutions as high as these. Most games range from 480p to 720p. Because of this disparity, your plasma TV needs to "upscale" the resolution of the input (namely, the game). This is where lag occurs.


According to the AV Science Forum:

The average HDTV seems to lag roughly 6 frames, or 1/10th of a second when processing 480i material...Casual gamers probably will not notice a lag this small...The most affected gamers will be those who play ultra-time sensitive games such rhythm games, sports games with swinging/kicking meters, shooters, or fighting games.


To help demystify the problem, IGN called out to its readers to submit feedback on laggy HDTVs. One reader sent in images showing a telling disparity in the Halo 2 game screens, one on a CRT and the other an HDTV ( see the article ). Though he was using a DLP, the images will impress upon you the severity of lag in some TVs.


Solving LagThere are many options to eliminate lag, but some of them cost a fortune. You can buy products that upscale/convert the resolution from your games (listed quite extensively at the AV Science forum, see the first post at this thread ).


For those still looking out for the right plasma TV to complement their gaming needs, try to buy a model with a Game Mode. This feature will speed up the upscaling process, though not completely eliminate the lag.


However, if you're loyal to plasma TVs when it comes to playing games, consider yourself lucky -- DLP TVs are the worst type for gaming due to their higher lag times.

-----

Hope this helps.

Not really sure how accurate or relevant most of that information is, it seems to be several years old. Scaling is largely a non-issue now'a days, general image processing and frame interpolation dwarf it.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregf70 /forum/post/16380400


However, if you're loyal to plasma TVs when it comes to playing games, consider yourself lucky -- DLP TVs are the worst type for gaming due to their higher lag times.

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Hope this helps.

My Toshiba DLP doesn't have any lag at all, with Wii and PS3. Didn't hear a single complaint from friends playing games on it too.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by broketoo /forum/post/16381092


My Toshiba DLP doesn't have any lag at all, with Wii and PS3. Didn't hear a single complaint from friends playing games on it too.

It is a common misconception that stems from the reputation of early Samsung DLP's which were criminally bad. They were literally the poster child for this issue. I have no doubt more contemporary DLP's are at least on par with their like year flat panel brethren.
 

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they are just fine for gaming...if you are seriously concerned with a couple ms ...then there is something wrong and its not with the tv.
 

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i went from a 1080i crt to a sammy pn58B560 and i see or feel no noticeable lag. if there is lag it's not enough for me to notice at all. i play racing games, shooters, sports games, pretty much everything and have had no problems yet.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by broketoo /forum/post/16381092


My Toshiba DLP doesn't have any lag at all, with Wii and PS3. Didn't hear a single complaint from friends playing games on it too.

My old Samsung HL-S5687W DLP had absolutely no lag whatsoever, even in music-based games like rockband and guitar hero.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofoff /forum/post/16394215


they are just fine for gaming...if you are seriously concerned with a couple ms ...then there is something wrong and its not with the tv.

You are implying that he should not be concerned with a couple ms difference between what the console is outputting and what the tv is displaying. You are wrong in this.


Depending on the type of game, 50ms can literally kill you (in game of course). I know it does not seem like a significant amount of time but what it means is that a person with less or no lag is going to start reacting quicker to the game then you will. For example on a shooter if you were to both to walk around a corner and see each other, one player would see the other 50ms sooner and start pulling the trigger. While the entire action of seeing someone, reacting, and then gunning them down in the game might take much more time then 50ms in total, it will take both players about the same amount of time. This means that the person who does not have the lag will not only start 50ms earlier more importantly they will END their actions 50ms earlier, which when you are firing bullets at each other means their bullet hits you first causing you to die. If they are moving it could be much worse in that a person with lag will continuosly be shooting behind where the other person actually is. Dont forget that the input (controller) is not suffering from the lag from the TV so you are giving input into a system using visual data that is old.


So the OP's concern for having a low lag is valid. I also share his interest in knowing what the lag is for various TVs and modes. It seems like extremely relavent info seeing as how many people play games these days. While not everyone is going to make this the most critical factor in buying a TV, it would still be nice to be able to factor it in. Especially considering the nuances a lot of posters on this site seem to consider majorly important.
 

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Keep in mind that every person's tolerance is different. Several years back, I was one of the first to discover this issue and study it by doing research. I measured input lag on a lcd monitor vs a crt using an on screen digital clock application. I took many pictures using many different settings.


What led me to do this in the first place was an "unexplainable dissatisfaction" when gaming or even surfing the web on my LCD monitor. Something just didn't feel right after I got my Samsung LCD monitor. The result was that I discovered input lag on the monitor I was using. However, what I also discovered was that there was input lag on every LCD but the amount varied. I also discovered that my tolerance for input lag was right around 40ms. Anything less than that and I did not seem to notice. The samsung I was initially unhappy with was around 60-100ms! Also, the monitor's I have been less effected by have had more consistant lag times as opposed to the samsung which had a larger range.


I have measured my Pio 6070 using Rockband 2's autocalibration feature at right around 40ms.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goofoff /forum/post/16394215


they are just fine for gaming...if you are seriously concerned with a couple ms ...then there is something wrong and its not with the tv.

haha
I agree. If it really is that important to you, then you should probably stick to playing on an old CRT or find a new hobby...
 

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Ok.....so what plasma? I notice input lag on my lcd when i'm trying to snipe people in Halo 3. It is very annoying. VGA cables helped very little. I want a nice plasma that I can hookup HDMI and not have any input lag at all.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by joemama127 /forum/post/16445418


haha
I agree. If it really is that important to you, then you should probably stick to playing on an old CRT or find a new hobby...

Yes, no input lag playing real life sports/exercise
 

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You won't find a lcd or plasma above 32-37" that has no lag. I believe sharp makes a small gaming lcd that supposedly has no lag but the picture isn't good and... well it's small.


I have a Panasonic g15 50" and have done lag tests vs a laptop (which I also tested and had not visible lag) with game mode on and off and on all picture settings and consistantly got 25ms tops (sorry, don't have the pictures anymore). It ranged anywhere from 20-25 but usually was 25ms. Coming from an old lcd with 50ms the difference in ryhthm and shooters was noticeable immediately. Just my 2 cents though.


You will be hard pressed to find any big, panel tv these days with a lesser input lag.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RemoWilliams84 /forum/post/17419797


You won't find a lcd or plasma above 32-37" that has no lag. I believe sharp makes a small gaming lcd that supposedly has no lag but the picture isn't good and... well it's small.


I have a Panasonic g15 50" and have done lag tests vs a laptop (which I also tested and had not visible lag) with game mode on and off and on all picture settings and consistantly got 25ms tops (sorry, don't have the pictures anymore). It ranged anywhere from 20-25 but usually was 25ms. Coming from an old lcd with 50ms the difference in ryhthm and shooters was noticeable immediately. Just my 2 cents though.


You will be hard pressed to find any big, panel tv these days with a lesser input lag.

Sounds like BS.


Also 25ms is nothing. No ones is ever going to notice that.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomGreen321 /forum/post/17422617


Sounds like BS.


Also 25ms is nothing. No ones is ever going to notice that.

That's just a hair over 1 frame. Perfectly acceptable for pro gaming. I am just curious if the the V10 (especially the 65") are the same, but can't find any tests on it.
 
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