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Discussion Starter #1
Best projector vs. Pioneer KURO Elite


Using the Pioneer KURO Elite plasma as a reference base.



I’m very pleased with the performance of the Pioneer and I am looking for a projector that will give as close as possible similar picture performance.


I’m inclined to think the RS-20 is state of art at the moment.


So the question to all that have state of the art knowledge, what projectors would give equivalent results to the KURO?

I am using a 8ft, 16 X 9 screen in compleatly dark room.


Thanks to all in advance
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Insert addendums.


Q is what projector could perform the best compared to the KURO?


Lets assume the following criteria are already addressed and keep the discussion to the projectors raw performance. Thanks


Not how much it costs.

Not what screen is best.

Not room environments.

Not cinematic, immersive experience.


Interest include resolution, coloremetry, low s/n, accurate gray scale and the ability to handle highlight detail.



Projectors mentioned thus far:


JVC RS20

Planar 8150

Sim2 Lumis

Epson 1080UB

Marantz VP-11S2

Panasonic 3000

Samsung SP-A900B
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by azgard /forum/post/16563574


Best projector vs. Pioneer KURO Elite


Using the Pioneer KURO Elite plasma as a reference base.



I’m very pleased with the performance of the Pioneer and I am looking for a projector that will give as close as possible similar picture performance.


I’m inclined to think the RS-20 is state of art at the moment but have no practical experience with projectors.


So the question to all that have state of the art knowledge, what projectors would give equivalent results to the KURO?

I am using a 8ft, 16 X 9 screen.


Thanks to all in advance

The RS20 puts out an image very similar to the Kuro plasma, I find. In fact at least one calibrator on the forum thinks the RS20 image is better than his Kuro plasma image.


There are other projectors that can do better in some areas than the RS20, like the Planar, Marantz projectors and maybe some others (without getting crazy expensive). But the RS20 black levels are, I think, what tends to bring out comparisons between the JVC and a Kuro plasma.


Even if the JVC projector doesn't have the level of pure contrast of the plasma you also have to ask yourself what an appropriate comparison really is. I mean, will an RS20 put out an image that looks as deep and rich as the Kuro plasma? Maybe, maybe not quite.


But...will the Kuro plasma put out an image as huge, cinematic and immersive as the projector? No. Not even close.
 

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I went through the same analysis last year so maybe I can help.


First and most important. Do you have a dedicated room, a HT room, for your projector? I did and that helped with modifying the room for the projector vs. my Pioneer plasma.


If you answer no, then you might have some issues with creating the best performance and environment for the projector. Creating a space that is used as a living room and a dark theater is difficult and could prove to be intrusive and a pain every time you want to watch a movie or TV.


If you answered yes, then a switch is a no brainer.


Darken the room, paint, shades, anything to limit light getting into the room and when in the room limits the transfer of light around the room. This will be the best bang for the buck you can do for a projector. If you have a room with white walls and simple shades over the windows, don't waste your money on a fancy projector that will ultimately suffer from poor light control performance.


As for the projectors, the 2 that jump to mind under the 15K price range are the RS20 (as you indicated) and the Planar 8150.


Both are excellent projectors with pluses and minuses. I have the RS20 and love it. Many here also have the 8150 and love that projector also. I would map out my setup location and screen size preference then judge which one would be the best fit. In the end, your room environment is the most important upgrade you can make, not really the projector.


Going from a 60" Pioneer to a 120" projected image was nothing short of AWESOME!! You will not be disappointed, not in the least. You might even find yourself lifting your nose at the plasma later, I know I do.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by azgard /forum/post/16563719


Insert addendums.


Q is what projector could perform the best compared to the KURO?


Lets assume the following criteria are already addressed and keep the discussion to the projectors raw performance. Thanks


Not how much it costs.

Price no object, the Sim2 Lumis reportedly has "better" blacks than the RS20, and is far brighter.


Quote:
Not what screen is best.

Not room environments.

You really can't isolate these. If you've got a horrible room, it doesn't matter how good the projector is, the picture will look like crap.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks Rich for your input.


With reference to appropriate comparison

I'm mostly interested in resolution, coloremetry, low s/n, accurate gray scale and the ability to handle highlight detail.
 

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Perhaps more than a few of us are mulling over the same questions!


Went for the plasma first (made sense because of the over all flexibility compared to a projector system in terms of placement and light control) and now thinking of bigger as possibly "better".


Problem is I am spoiled; the Kuro is so good that I don't want to give up too much in going "BIG".


The choice ahead of Cedia seems to come down to rs-20 or 8150 (planar). It has been suggested by some that the 8150 may feel more "plasma like" but at the cost of the blacks.

The trade off as I understand it... All else being equal...

rs-20 = cannot match the 8150 for Ansi contrast, sharpness of image, and as a result a sense of 3 dimensional realism.

8150 = cannot match rs-20 for on/off contrast, black levels.


Of course, all else is not equal and therefore other considerations will come into play, such as placement flexibility (the rs-20 has much greater zoom range, cms color control access, convenience features such as remote control zoom/focus), sensitivity to the strobe effects from the color wheel to name a few.


That all said I live in an area where I no access to either of these choices and so I depend on forums such as this to attempt to make an "Informed decision". Tough!


All I can say is happy hunting (and also fair to say that from what I've garnered so far, I/we would likely be happy with either of these choices (as well as many others not considered here.).
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Thanks PioManiac


Interesting you mention the Epson 1080UB 3 LCD unit.


I’ve seen its performance and I must agree it’s quit impressive. My impression is the LCD appears to have an edge in the resolution area.
 

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I have a 50 inch Pio 9G and I have seen the Epson 7500, the RS20, and the Panny 3000.


Get the Panny 3000 or the new 4000 out later this year, and get a 2.35:1 screen(the panny has a mode that lets you easily switch between 2.35:1 and 16:9 with a button press or two). With 16:9 (HDTV and gaming) you will get vertical black bars on either side of the screen. You can mask or not....your choice.


Anyway, the Panny 3000 on a 2.35 screen properly calibrated in a a dark room absolutely smashes the Pio for PQ. The filmlike quality is awesome, colors accurate, and the immersion is phenominal. Don't obsess over black bars, just get a 2.35 screen and be done with it. BTW, I saw the Panny 3000 side by side to the Rs20 and I wasn't overly impressed with the RS20. Panny had better motion, and the black bars were very close. The added "punch" that the CR added to the intra scene pop on the Rs 20 was negated by the worse shadow details as compared to the Panny. Just my opinion. For the record I don't own a projector yet, but spending that much more on the Rs20 makes zero sense to me. Invest the money in a top notch screen (2.35), as this has a big effect on PQ, regardless of what some may say just after they buy the discount screen.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by azgard /forum/post/16564601


Thanks PioManiac


Interesting you mention the Epson 1080UB 3 LCD unit.


I’ve seen its performance and I must agree it’s quit impressive. My impression is the LCD appears to have an edge in the resolution area.

I know I'll eventually own a better PJ, and JVC tops my short list, although there are some impressive DLP's I'd certainly look closer at.

I paid just over $2k (after rebates and freebies) when the 1080UB's were discontinued last Fall.

With a free spare bulb in waiting, I will likely get another PJ long before I ever have to purchase a replacement bulb.


My main motivator though was I thought a PJ was a better move than paying $6500 (canadian) to get a new 60" Pio (at triple the price for one quarter the screen size)

..I already have two 50" Pio's and dont think I'll ever buy another TV for a good long time.


Good luck in your search
 

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It's also hard to compare things like "image detail" between a small plasma screen and a big projected image. Even if a plasma, with it's vividness, seems to eek out a bit more vivid detail, you still have to consider what a much larger image brings to the experience. A projected image brings out much more detail in another way: By making the image really big it's just easier to see, or notice, details that you wouldn't notice on a much smaller plasma image.


Take crowd scenes, or city streets or whatever, with lots going on. Whenever I view on my projector it's like peering into a real-life-sized location and I notice what various people in the crowd are doing, or details of the streets and buildings etc. Details that are certainly there if I look up close on a plasma, but which become so small I don't really notice them on the smaller screen.


There's more impact even watching the actors on screen. On a smaller TV screen - a plasma - there's a sort of greater "tiered" connection I get with the actor's expressions. They are easy to see in close ups, of course, but less so as the shots become more wider and wider. So in the closer shots I connect with the actor's emotions, in the wider it tends to be about the actor's movements. Whereas with a much bigger projected image the actor remains large even in the wider shots, so I never lose that connection to being able to clearly see what he is thinking. It's a more consistent connection, dramatically, to what is going on. One of the things that really struck me when I started watching DVDs on the big screen was how many acting moments I had sort of "missed" and wasn't aware of on a small screen. The big screen really is like re-visiting a film if you've only seen it plasma-sized.


I call the type of detail you notice on the big screen "dramatic detail" vs the normal discussion of image detail (which is whether a detail shows up at all on either screen).


There's also a type of dimensionality that can happen with a good projector and a big image that is really something to behold.
 

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Quote:
With reference to appropriate comparison

I'm mostly interested in resolution, coloremetry, low s/n, accurate gray scale and the ability to handle highlight detail.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post15980742
http://www.cepro.com/slideshow/image/4419/
http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/pdf/Sa...900B_Specs.pdf


Best regards and beautiful pictures,

G. Alan Brown, President

CinemaQuest, Inc.

A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate


"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"
 

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Only a projector with a good to great black level and very high ansi is going to look like the kuro.


Not many if any projector will get you to 100% of the Kuro.


The Marantz VP-11S2 was close, but didn't have the same accurate colors of my kuro.


I would say the


Marantz VP-11S2

Planar 8150

Sim2 Lumis


are your only real contenders in this consumer market, and the first 2 are only good if you are not super RBE sensitive.
 

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I know that the answer to this question is highly subjective, but.....


Rs-20 ~ Planar 8150 vs.


Panasonic Epson "type" solutions...?


Could the untrained observer, brought into an unfamiliar room,


(Lets say for argument that the room is a well set up "bat cave" scenario, and that the projectors have been all well calibrated, etc. etc.).


And that none of the projectors are at a specific or particular disadvantage in relation to the others in the comparison, (in other words, that the experiment was not biased to favor a particular technology,


tell which is which and place the projectors reliably into a cost performance ranking?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 /forum/post/16564053


Price no object, the Sim2 Lumis reportedly has "better" blacks than the RS20, and is far brighter.

Did you compare them or do you base this on reviews of others? Just curious.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Thanks George for the Joe Kane Samsung SP-A900B contribution. I'm sure he spent considerable time on the electronic processing transparency.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by transendance /forum/post/16565005


I know that the answer to this question is highly subjective, but.....


Rs-20 ~ Planar 8150 vs.


Panasonic Epson "type" solutions...?


Could the untrained observer, brought into an unfamiliar room,


(Lets say for argument that the room is a well set up "bat cave" scenario, and that the projectors have been all well calibrated, etc. etc.).


And that none of the projectors are at a specific or particular disadvantage in relation to the others in the comparison, (in other words, that the experiment was not biased to favor a particular technology,


tell which is which and place the projectors reliably into a cost performance ranking?

An untrained observer (joe six pack) will not be able to "reliably" place in a cost performance ranking. Most don't care about picture quality at all and only care if it is HD and bright.


But put me and some other well trained observers in a room with LCD, SXRD, LCOS and DLP. Hide the projectors and we would be able to tell you what each one is technology wise and in what price ranking.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK /forum/post/16564960


Only a projector with a good to great black level and very high ansi is going to look like the kuro.


Not many if any projector will get you to 100% of the Kuro.


The Marantz VP-11S2 was close, but didn't have the same accurate colors of my kuro.


I would say the


Marantz VP-11S2

Planar 8150

Sim2 Lumis


are your only real contenders in this consumer market, and the first 2 are only good if you are not super RBE sensitive.

I recommend the RS20. I feel it's important to factor in that this will be the OP's first projector. The OP is used to the much more turnkey approach to video that a flat panel has over a projector, and might be a lot better off not further complicating the move to projection by adding issues with miniscule zoom ranges and lens shift, rainbows, dust blobs, and sketchy quality control that the other projectors have. The two LCDs mentioned fall short in image quality, can be plagued with dust blobs, and are from companies that have had plenty of QC issues in earlier models. The three single-chip DLPs may present rainbow problems that the OP or his family or friends could find issue with and will not have the wide zoom range that can be very useful and informative to someone trying out his first projector. The Lumis sounds impressive, but carries quite a bit of risk in terms of QC issues, issues that the OP would not even know to look for. Imagine if the OP ended up with a Lumis that had convergence off by 1.25, as a forum member friend did. He might end up watching an addled image for a few years without knowing he should have better and be in for a big surprise a few years down the road when he finds out no one will buy his projector. The RS20 is reasonably priced, has a wide 2:1 zoom, has plenty of lens shift flexibility, has no problems with rainbows, has no problems with dust blobs, and has very decent QC.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Ok, lets take it up a notch. Please rank the projectors listed.

Rank only the ones you have personally seen, tested or own.


Again, without regard if it's a light cannon, price is not the issue but I'm thinking 3K to say 15K i.e. sub commercial level. About what this forum calls for.


Main consideration is absolute precision picture performance.


This includes things like resolution, colorimetry, low s/n, accurate gray scale and the ability to handle highlight detail.



Projectors mentioned thus far:


JVC RS20

Planar 8150

Sim2 Lumis

Epson 1080UB

Marantz VP-11S2

Panasonic 3000

Samsung SP-A900B
 
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