[TheaterJeff]

HI:


Just wondering what some of you use as your reference CD player and how you like it. I'm considering three companies right now: Krell, Classe and Linn. The Krell 28c model will allow you to use the new CAST system which should be very nice. But, I know the other two companies make great players as well. If you own one of these I would be interested in knowing how you like it or your thoughts on a reference CD player.


Happy listening,

http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


Jeff

 

[Mark]

I'm just wondering if you have included Wadia and Levinson in your auditions.


Mark

 

[Frank_S]

Jeff, I'm currently auditioning CD players and DAC/transport alternatives. I started my search auditioning the ARCAM FMJ CD23(retail $2k). I am comparing its performance along side a THETA CHROMA 396 Dac with a REGA Planet as a transport. My initial listening has provided me with the satisfaction in knowing that either 1 of these alternatives would be satisfying. I will broaden my search in the future to the Cal CL15 and the Sigma II DAC. Perhaps if I can get a hold of an MSB Link III,I'd like to hear that also. My budget is only $2k,however, from what I've heard so far, I'm optimistic that I'll be more than happy with whatever I end up choosing. BTW, my dealer said he prefers the Arcam over the Classe, I have'nt heard the Classe so I can't say, good luck Jeff.

 

[TheaterJeff]

Mark-


No I haven't, do you think I should? What are your thoughts and likes on the models from those companies?


Frank-


Sounds good, I check it out too.

http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


Jeff

 

[Deniz Mutlu]

Jeff,


Don't you own a Pioneer DV-09? If the answer is yes, then I believe you already own of the of the best reference CD players out there. Another one would be the Sony 7700 which would depend heavily on system matching. It can sound bright in some systems especially ones with speakers that have metal dome tweeters.


Sometimes the best doesn't sound as good because of the associated equipment.

 

[Mark]

Jeff:

Just from the list of DAC's that you're considering I feel that you had left off these two very well regarded companies products.

I used to own a Levinson 36 but the new 360 and 360s are much improved and upgradeable.

Wadia is known for makeing excellent DAC's and they are very well regarded and get excellent reviews.


Go to their websites at wadia.com and madrigal.com (for Levinson)where you can learn more about them.

Also you can go to audioreview.com where you can see what people who own or have listened to these products think of them.

Of course reviews are only a guide, your own ears should tell you what you like.


I feel that if you are going to purchase a reference CD player,i.e. spend alot of money, it's important that they are upgradeable to the new technologies which both Wadia and Levinson are.

 

[Nick Satullo]

I'm not a good one to ask about reference CD players, since I used to have the Sony XA7ES (Stereophile Class A, Audio's reference player, yada, yada, yada) and, after several a/b tests with the same discs used between it and the Sony ES megadisc changer--both being fed into the same digital processor--there was no difference. I decided then and there that a transport only had so much to offer.


I think Deniz's suggestions are good, but, if you're hell-bent on spending the money, I would without question opt for the Proceed PMDT. It has a card cage design, which will make it upgradeable to DVD-Audio, SACD, or any other format that gets flung your way. That, plus it's a reference standard DVD player.


Of course, this is only a transport, and you're going to need a great digital processor, too. Happy hunting.



Nick


[This message has been edited by Nicholas (edited July 25, 2000).]

 

[PF]

Jeff,


I own Levinson, but the best bang for the buck is the Wadia 860X if you don't need a preamp. Tomorrow, I'll be auditioning its just-out replacement, the 861, which is supposedly as good as, if not better, than the 270/27IX. I'll post a quick report if you're interested.


I agree with the other posters that the minimum threshold of the current technology is so good that even "mass market" players like the DV09 and Sony 7700 can sound surprisingly good. But I must admit that it's fun to try to put together the best reference quality player you can afford. And it will make a subtle but satisfying improvement to your system. BUT if it means you're getting less than the speakers or amp/preamp you deserve, then I'm with J. Gordon Holt who said, "If you want to change the sound of your CD player, buy new speakers."


Assuming the rest of your system is at that level, for what it's worth, if it were my money, I'd cut back on the CD front end a bit (maybe buy a great all around one-boxer like the Levinson 39 at around $4500 - $4800) and add a Sony SACD player at around $2700 or wait for the new lower priced Sony unit already out in Europe which will probably retail for $900 here. (I need a preamp in my system which the Sony SACD players also require, so the Wadias are out for me. They just don't sound nearly as good when not run direct to the amp, IMO.) It doesn't matter how many thousands you spend on Levinson or Spectral or Accuphase or Wadia or Linn or DCS upsamplers or anything else you can name; nothing -- not even vinyl -- is equivalent to SACD. Too bad there aren't more software titles -- but Sony says they're coming.


Good luck.

 

[TheaterJeff]

Thanks for the replies, I will centainly demo the units mentioned. I won't be listening to the DVD/CD player as I have a Pioneer Elite DV-09 player and don't need a double duty unit, just a high-end reference player. Are any of the reference players mentioned that aren't DVD/CD combos upgradable from the company if new standards come out (such at SACD?)


I'm just looking for a reference CD player right now and would like it to be upgradable if possible. The Krell 28c model is suppossed to be a great new player too that takes advantage of CAST if you have a Krell amp. From what was mentioned I am leaning to the Linn and Wadia models for demo too.


What I don't know about, and others too right now, is of course future formats coming. The new audio standards like SACD, DVD-Audio, 24/96, etc. are sure to happen but one format will likely kill of the others. Why I say that is because a format must be decided upon and then marketed like crazy by the studio companies for consumers to buy it like they do CDs now. One thing I find disappointing on the Sony SACD units is no digital output on them, I don't know what they are thinking there. Since no format is certain at this time, and I hope SACD does win out, I would like to have a unit I can upgrade from the company when formats are final given the cost of those reference players mentioned.


What do you think?


Jeff

 

[Buzz Goddard]

If you are lloking to have a reference quality setup with a separate transport and D/A, you should strongly consider finding designs that allow the clocks to be sync'd. If they aren't jitter is going to be a major factor. AFAIK, this means you will be sticking with a same brand solution and it rules out most of the contenders...


------------------

Buzz Goddard

TAG MCLAren Audio
www.tagmclarenaudio.com

 

[erliii]

Frank_S,


if you want to stay in the $2K range, i would definitely recommend looking into the EAD Ultradisc 2000, which i have seen showing up on the used market for $1500-1700 (as a matter of fact, someone has one at AudioReview for $1500 right now). it is based on Pioneer's stable platform design, is HDCD capable, uses 20-bit Burr-Brown DACs, and has excellent proprietary anti-jitter circuitry. at that price, you could also pick up an MSB Link (i've seen Link IIs modified by Dusty Vawter of Channel Islands Audio for under $400 on the used market) to use in conjunction with it. the EAD alone would be amazing, but adding the Link would make for a truly awesome combination...

 

[TheaterJeff]

M Wiebelhaus-


I'm beginning to agree with that the more shopping and research I do. True, one can get a reference CD player like a Krell or other for high dollars but it still will need to be upgraded if supported to use with future formats. For now, I may just get a real good mega changer and wait for the new audio formats to mature. Then most of the reference players will do SACD or whatever comes along plus be a great regular CD player.


Not ruling out a modular unit right now though, looking at the Wadia models and a couple of others.


Thanks,


Jeff

 

[Nathan Ivey]

I have a question for some of you.


Have you ever used a transport by utilizing the AES/EBU output?


I would like to know how you would compare this to the single ended digital cable.


I am the owner of a theta casa nova and have the option of an AES/EBU input.

I have been looking at a transport solution for low budget easy re-sale player only to hear what AES/EBU sounds like. Is it completely different?


Anyway from what I've seen cost no object it's The Wadia'

Any one want to sell there transport?

 

[Rick]

I would STRONGLY throw the Proceed PMDT into the mix. It is not only a great DVD player, but is an awesome CD player, SW and HW upgradeable, and very user friendly.

-rick

 

[Jay L]

meridian 800

ayre d1

 

[PF]

Jeff,


The mega changer idea is a great one. I've got a 300 disk Pioneer Elite that cost me $475. It's the best $475 I ever spent. I just put it in random mode and sit back and enjoy the surprises and forgotten gems in my music collection.


And if you still want to go modular, buy a Levinson 360 DAC for $3200, hook it up to the digital output of the changer and enjoy essentially state of the art sound for a (relatively) small outlay. And you know that Levinson is always going to be worth something.


I wouldn't be afraid of taking the SACD plunge. It's here to stay. Many, many of both the large and small recording studios have bought Sony's DSD recorders and are already working with this breakthrough format.


By the way, I heard the Wadia 861 today. Wadia has a major problem, if you ask me. As I told the Wadia rep, the 861 has better detail and sounds more real than their megabucks reference 27ix DAC and 270 transport. What a great new machine. Too bad the price went up $500 to $7950.


Lastly, you've mentioned Krell several times now and I wanted to make a comment. I've owned Krell gear and they make some of the best products in the high end. But don't think for a minute that just because they tell you the piece you bought from them will be upgradeable, that in fact it will be. Krell is one of the more egregious high end companies when it comes to orphaning products. And even if it is upgradeable, the price of doing so usually doesn't make sense -- it's cheaper to sell the old unit and buy a new one than to purchase the upgrade. That's not just true of Krell by the way, but most high end gear: Levinson, Wilson, etc.


One other thing: One reviewer, Martin Colloms of HFN&RR, an absolutely notorious Krell partisan, recently gave the CAST connection system a surprisingly emphatic thumbs down. He much prefered the standard connections to the CAST. Until those comments, I don't think I had ever ready anything negative whatsoever about a Krell product from Mr. Colloms. Anyway, he's not God, but you should definitely audition this for yourself.


[This message has been edited by PF (edited July 28, 2000).]

 

[TheaterJeff]

PF-


For now, I will most likely just get a mega changer like the Denon 5000 or Pioneer Elite 27 unit. The Wadia, Linn, etc. I'm sure are great reference players I will demo them but wait for some of the new formats to shake down first. While I'm sure SACD is a good bet, I just would like to have the software there for it first.


I think your comments about the Krell are good to have your input on since you do know about them. Do you own any Krell gear right now or have you? The Krell HTS and 250a amp combo is a killer when I heard it. The only thing I've heard equal is the Meridian 861 (not to say other gear is bad, just my personal taste). I'm using Krell gear right now too and was wondering how your upgrades and service was for your gear? If you would, what was the magazine name and issue number about the CAST article you mentioned? The point you make about Krell and other companies not giving true support for an upgrade path with card based units (be it porcessors or transports) is a good one. Just look at Theta right now with the Casablanca II issue. I know customers that own the Casablanca and they are quite upset over this issue and are letting Theta hear it. But, like you say, others tend to do this as well. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif


Jeff

 

[PF]

Jeff,


Unfortunately, I don't own any Krell gear now. I used to, then went through a tube phase, and now I've become a mostly Levinson guy. Every time I demo a new Krell unit, I must admit that I'm always impressed, if that helps.


The Krell CAST system review was in a recent issue of the British Audio Magazine, "HiFi News and Record Reviews." I left the issue in my office on Friday so I can't tell you exactly which one. If it's the July issue, you'll probably still be able to find it on the newstands for a few more days. Otherwise I can fax it to you or you can see if it's on their web site (which I think they share with enjoythemusic.com).


I agree with Wibe about the Levinson DACs and transports -- they're really very, very good but expensive. And I'd say the cheaper but new 360S with a 31.5 transport even beats his previous generation 30.5. But I'm not confident about Levinson's upgradeability claims. When I bought my 360S I didn't delude myself about that because I know that Levinson's track record is poor in that the upgrades are usually extraordinarily expensive. And an upgraded unit isn't worth terribly much more than an non-upgraded one -- certainly not enough to compensate for the upgrade cost. Better to buy a new unit and sell the old one than to upgrade.


Maybe Wibe is right that this time will be the exception -- a simple, inexpensive software download via a phone line. But as Jimmy The Greek used to say, "Never bet a streak to end."

 

[migliore]

The Sony 7700 stinks as a transport - comparable to a cd player at half its price.


I own a Burmester setup (about 35k for transport, 30k for dac). Just Kidding! These are HP's reference gear. I'll 'trust' him http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


Rob


------------------
Migliore Theater

 

[adidadi]

Regarding the Levinson 39, it is amazing. If you use the unit as a complete, unit, going directly into an amp. It is truly breathtaking.


I don't know if I would recommend spending big bucks right now with all the format uncertainties. However, CD's of the current format will always be around, and when properly played, they still sound great. Sometimes people rant and rave about all these new additions; HDCD, etc.. but often they deliver no big, audible differences. I hope these new changes are big changes we actually perceive.