AVS Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 17 of 17 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,114 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
2 thoughts directly related to your points:

1) I don't like "micro-perf" screens under any conditions, not to mention you pay more $$ for holes! I have arranged my setup such that my center speakers sit *underneath* the screen (in the cabinet that holds my HDTV).

2) I believe the low-gain/high-contrast screens improve *any* LCD/DLP projector. I installed a Da-Lite HC (.8 gain) 16x9 screen a couple of months and have been auditioning projectors with it. I hope to (permanently) get access (from work) to one of the new InFocus DLP's soon.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,952 Posts
I used to think this about perf'd screens too but I have learned that but is simply no substitute for the sound coming out of the mouths of the actors. Once you see/hear a Center behind the screen, it will become painfully obvious to you the next time you hear speakers above or below the screen just how disjointed this really sounds/looks. Also, this is something only we FP folks can do.


I'm still thinking that these newer 800 and 650 lumen projectors for large screens will work better with a 1.3 gain screen.


Anyone else feel this way??


-- Cain

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
835 Posts
It really depends on how big a screen you want, if you have a reasonable screen size a grey screen will provide benefits to *any* projector. The reason why CRT's are not well suited for grey screens is because they don't have enough brightness. That being said, there are digital projectors that are too dim to be useable with a grey screen at realistic screen size, luckily in most cases they are low brightness because light has been sacrificed for increased contrast so it balances out.


If the new crop of high contrast projectors (800+:1 contrast) actually make their spec the contrast and black level may be acceptable to most people. However, in almost all cases a grey screen with cost the same as a white screen. So, given that you have enough brightness it is desireable to have a grey screen. OTOH, if the contrast is good enough for you, you can forego the grey screen and move to a larger screen size.


There should be no problem with moire on newer 16:9 DLP's because of their smaller screen door. LCD's are another story. I believe the PLV-60 also has moire problems with micro-perfs along with the 10HT (and presumeably the 11HT). I don't know how much MLA will help when/if it makes it into a 16:9 LCD, it does reduce screen door, but not to the degree where it will match D-ILA or DLP.


Regards,


Kam Fung
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,223 Posts
Cain


I agree, once the DLP's lick the black level problem, why would you want a screen that is actually grey in color. I have seen the Dalite High Contrast and my amature opinion is that whites are slightly dimmer. It seems to me that no matter how much light you shine on a grey screen the image will always have a grey tint to it. IMO these screens are for projectors lacking in black level or people who are obsessed with black levels. I see no benifet in using one of these screens if you are fortunate enough to be a proud owner of one of these new generation of DLP projectors.


I have never seen the Greyhawk. If it is indeed a white screen with .9 gain then their may be a benifet depending on your screen size and light control.


William

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,952 Posts
Thx for the thoughts guys.


I have a sample of the GrayHawk screen and I was shocked at how gray it actually is. Apparently it keeps the gain it has by the reflectance of the surface, but when you see how gray it is you would think it would be about a .7 gain.


I'm thinking that the whole point of the Gray screens was to improve contrast ratio and hide screen-door pixel type gaps.


So I'm thinking if these new projectors really have such a high contrast and a higher resolution, then it would seem prudent to get more zip to the image from a 1.3 gain screen.


I'm anxious to hear people who see these projectors in person, and have the opportunity to ask the mfgs which screens they recommend.


-- Cain
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,864 Posts
I can't understand this posta about the Sony 10HT having problems with per or high gain screens.


About two months ago one of the members of this forum contacted me to ask me could he bring his Sony 10HT to my house because I have a 60x107 Stewart Silver 400 perforated screen.


We set the PJ up on a stand, fed it a signal (S-Video) from a Panasonic DVD playerand let it rip.


The picture was incredible! It blew my Zenith PRO900X with Cassini HTPC set at 800x600P @72 khz image away...except for the deep rich blacks. They were dark gray. But the brightness was incredible. I almost had to wear sunglasses.


We tested Starship Troopers, Dracula and then Toy Story (which has very few blacks) which looked unbelievable.


We were sitting 14 feet from the screen and at no time did either of us see an "holes" from the perforations.


If my PJ died tomorrow, I would get a Sony 10/11ht the next day.


Lee
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
753 Posts
Hi

I would not consider the GrayHawk unless you have a

real light cannon.Advertised ANSI Lumen and Real ANSI

lumen spec are most often very different.Your image

will not have any Punch and look dull with the GrayHawk

and a Low Lumen Projector.Size of the image must also

be considered when using a low Gain screen the GrayHawk is

.98 Thats a pretty low gain for a projector to "Overcome"

for a high contrast,Brite image

Cheers Ray



------------------

If it ain't broke, fix it anyway !
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
835 Posts
A grey screen should never look "grey" when you project images on it. Unless you are running a side-by-side comparison with another higher gain screen. Your brain is quite adaptable and it has this wonderful feature called brightness constancy, the elements in an image that your brain thinks should be "white" will appear white. This makes sense when you consider that a piece of paper looks white under all kinds and intensities of light. If you are looking at a grey screen without another higher gain sample to compare, it *will* look white. If it doesn't, you have successfully defeated brightness constancy with the power of your mind, it is possible if you examine the screen with some pre-conceived notions of what it "should" look like.


I see this question a lot about grey screens, it makes logical sense that grey screen should make your whites appear grey. On the surface this would appear to be true, however once you account for the fact that "white" is really relative it doesn't hold up.


The best way to see to look at a half-and-half and a whole grey screen. On it's own the grey screen does not appear to reduce the brightness, but you see the increased black level.


Grey screens will also decrease the effect of ambient light, a white screen washes out a lot more easily than a grey screen. In a dark room this will also make a difference in your dynamic (ANSI) contrast, because the grey screen absorbs more of the light bouncing around the room. Unless you have walls, ceilings, seats, and clothing, you will derive some benefits from a grey screen.


As long as you have sufficient brightness from your projector, you should get a grey screen all other things being equal (like price). Obviously, if your projector does not have a lot of lumens and you have a larger screen size, a grey screen is not such a good idea.


You can see how much light from the room washes out your picture by moving your projector off a bit and looking at how bright the screen is when you aren't projecting an image. Unless you have a heavily optimised room, you might be surprised how much light is bouncing around. A grey screen will reduce this, and it will reduce it more than it reduces your screen brightness.


Ray,


I agree with you about lumens "specs" from manufacturers. They are often far below what they say they are. Hopefully affordable packages like Milori's Colorfacts will allow us to measure more projectors and determine how they actually perform.


BTW, 0.98 gain is not really a low gain. Your typical white wall is 1.0 gain. I believe this was intentional so that if your image looks bright enough on a white wall it will be bright enough for the Greyhawk.


Regards,


Kam Fung
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
753 Posts
Hi

Just to give you some reference I just installed

2 Yamaha DPX-1 DLP,s 1 had a 110" GreyHawk and the other

had a StudioTek 130 110" both 1:78 aspect ratio

This projector is rated at 800 Lumens

Both were calibrated to ISF standard.

The projector with the GrayHawk looked good but the colors

lacked punch and the WOW effect,Black levels were excellent.

The Projector with the StudioTek 130 had terrific punch and WoW effect but the Black levels looked a little on the

Grey side.I think its a trade off,But if I had to choose

between the two I would have picked the white screen.If I

Had a High power DILA it may be a different story

BTW I think the DPX-1 advertised at 1000 ASI and then

changed to 800ASI is closer to 400 ASI

Cheers Ray


------------------

If it ain't broke, fix it anyway !
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,952 Posts
I'm wondering about the new crop of DLP projectors about to ship, and what screen(s) would be optimal for them?


1) I'm wondering if their higher (16:9) resolutions will present problems with a micro-perf screen, like the problem people have with the Sony 10HT and micro-perf'd screens..


2) Do we really want/need a GrayHawk for projectors with such outstanding contrast ratios, fill rates, and low(er) light output??


Thoughts from the gang ??


-- Cain

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,014 Posts
For a long time I've been reading that one should take these light output specs with a grain of salt.

Several days ago I had the opportunity to compare a 2000 ANSI LCD projector to my 800 ANSI LT150. I do think the LCD produced a brighter picture but I actually had a hard time trying to discern the difference. And I feel pretty certain that it's picture appeared no brighter than a 1300 ANSI LCD projector I owned last year.


After seeing this, if sheer brightness was ever going to be the determining factor in my decision to purchase one of these things I would have to see it with my eyes. I don't think I trust these quoted ANSI ratings.


Bob Wood



------------------

~ The Sultan of Cheap ~
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,952 Posts
Thx Ray for the first hand answers to my questions, very informative, and very helpful..


I'm leaning to a 1.3 MicroPerf more than ever..


-- Cain

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,238 Posts
i keep thinking about the microperf but i keep thinking of the posts a while back that talked about moire problems. i keep i was thinking they were using a dila which should have a higher fill factor than a dlp. i currently have a diy fabric screen with the center channel behind and i have to agree. it makes me nuts to watch a home theatre with the center above or below the screen.


does anyone use a microperf with a dila today?


greg


------------------

-------------------------

Why does he shake hands with that guy right after he sexed the alligator
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
856 Posts
There are other issues that go along with single chip DLPs which the grayhawk helps to reduce. One is the noise from the image is reduced (kind of a flickering if you will)


Regards,

JOhn
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
835 Posts
Greg,


As far as I know there have never been any moire problems with the D-ILA and micro-perfs. Most problems occur with higher fill-factor LCD's.


There was one person that reported some slight moire at a certain screen size, but it was very slight and disappears when you change the image size. You can always get a sample and try once you get your projector, that way you can test in your particular situation and determine whether you suffer from any moire. As far as I know that was the only person who ever saw moire with the D-ILA (and I believe others in the forum went back to check their D-ILA's for moire).


Regards,


Kam Fung
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
753 Posts
Hi

If you are going the Micro perf route with a high

ANSI Lumen Projector

better plan on having Black Felt,Black I/0 carpet or

Flat Black paint behind the screen.To find out the effects of a lite back ground Behind a Micro Perf of any other

Thin material solid screen Take a flash light and hold it

a couple of inches away from the screen (the flash light need not be a brite one) Now look behind the screen

See anything that shouldn't be there? I thought so http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

Cheers Ray


------------------

If it ain't broke, fix it anyway !
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
17,607 Posts
"Jones says"


" it makes me nuts to watch a home theatre with the center above or below the screen"


Is this an acoustical objection of a VISUAL one?


Speakers positioned above or below the screen CAN be tweaked to sound as coming from the center.


If you are an audiophile over a videophile maybe I understand were you can get hung up with see issue.


Othrerwise you have much to experiment... I think...

 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top