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Discussion Starter #1
I'm looking at:


Hsu STF-3 or VTF-2

SVS PB10 or PB12

Outlaw LFM-1


and was also playing with this idea:


2 Outlaw LFM-2s, or

2 Hsu STF-1s, or

2 Dayton 12" subs


It seems like opinion on these boards is equally divided as to whether having 2 subs is a good or bad proposition, but then again if I find that having 2 subs spread apart doesn't work in my room I could try to put them close together which would eliminate that problem and bolster SPL, right?


The 2 small subs instead of 1 big sub is also appealing in that if I move into a smaller place with a smaller living room I could put 1 sub in a bedroom system.


I'm about a 70-80% music listener (jazz, classical, vocal rock), but would like to have some nice LFE once in a while during movies too, which my Ascend 340s definitely are not designed to provide.
 

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I haven't heard it personally, but I've read that the Rocket UFW-10 is a great "smaller" sub, especially if you are a 70-80% music listener.


If it was the other way around and you where mainly into HT, I'd go with the PB10.


Just my two cents!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by edster922
I'm about a 70-80% music listener (jazz, classical, vocal rock), but would like to have some nice LFE once in a while during movies too, which my Ascend 340s definitely are not designed to provide.
You may already know my opinion but this gives me another excuse to express it. The Dayton's are OK for HT but they will not cut it for music with the 340's. I've just moved the Dayton 10 into my study and have it paired with Mission 761 bookshelf speakers. It does a better job with the Missions. I attribute this to the Missions not being as revealing as the 340's.

I think Thucydes suggestion is a good one if music is the focus of your system. It's all about compromises. I've decided to forgo a sub for music and upgrade to the 340SE's. I'll keep using an inexpensive (cheap) sub for movies till the dollars free up for a good sub.


David
 

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I own a UFW-10 and can vouch for their superb musical performance. They don't have the best extension, but are fantastic in the range they were designed for. You could also consider a ULW-10 (same driver, smaller amp, sound correction software) which is a little bit cheaper and may allow you to get two.
 

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check out the infinity csw10 (650 watt 10" driver) from one call ($499) on clearance, I have this sub and it does reproduce lfe very well but it is incredible with music. It is not flabby at all it is very tight and articulate but can reach down to 22hz. It is very easy to integrate with your system, on the dvd war of the worlds it shakes the room and the sub is sitting on a cement floor! With music it blends in very well if you use the equalization system (RABOS). Great sub for the price.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I actually had the UFW-10 in my system for about a week on loan from a friend, he thinks that I did not set it up properly (which he might be right on since I didn't bother with its onboard EQ) but I found its SPL to be very disappointing in my 6000 cubic square foot space, esp. compared to the less expensive Hsu STF-2.


I think we might just have very different bass requirements---he's running a pair of Ascend 170s without a sub in one of his music setups, which to me would be completely unthinkable.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by merv43
check out the infinity csw10 (650 watt 10" driver) from one call ($499) on clearance, I have this sub and it does reproduce lfe very well but it is incredible with music. It is not flabby at all it is very tight and articulate but can reach down to 22hz. It is very easy to integrate with your system, on the dvd war of the worlds it shakes the room and the sub is sitting on a cement floor! With music it blends in very well if you use the equalization system (RABOS). Great sub for the price.
I'm curious, which other subs have you had or listened to? Just trying to get an idea about your frame of reference.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by edster922
I actually had the UFW-10 in my system for about a week on loan from a friend, he thinks that I did not set it up properly (which he might be right on since I didn't bother with its onboard EQ) but I found its SPL to be very disappointing in my 6000 cubic square foot space, esp. compared to the less expensive Hsu STF-2.


I think we might just have very different bass requirements---he's running a pair of Ascend 170s without a sub in one of his music setups, which to me would be completely unthinkable.
I don't even think a Rocket UFW-12 would be able to fill your room... 6000 ft^3 is a lot of space to fill. How big was your friend's room?
 

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edster922, I checked out the velodyne dps 12 and B&W 650 (my system is all B&W, matrix 803II htm 805's) both of these subs are great, the velodyne was the same price and the B&W was beyond my reach price wise. I felt the Infinity had a tighter, quicker response than the velodyne in my 22' x 14' basement theater/music room, it was much easier to blend into my system than was the velodyne, if I had been purchasing a sub just for home theater applications I might have have went to the velodyne or maybe tried an hsu or svs sub. Music is the first priority with my system, and even though the Matrix 803's don't need a lot of help in the bottom end in just music, i wanted a sub that would complement them rather than draw attention to itself, and I think the Infinity has done that well. It is a sealed subwoofer rather than vented and I think that is why (in my room) it is so tight and quick. Hope this helps.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhan1000
I don't even think a Rocket UFW-12 would be able to fill your room... 6000 ft^3 is a lot of space to fill. How big was your friend's room?
Hi there. Friend here. Eddies listening spot is a near field position about 5-6 feet from speakers in a cavernous elongated L shaped room with very high ceilings and stairs that open to a lower floor. The UFW-10 cannot fill that space. And the listening spot may be in a null or void.


The floorstanders in my reference system extend to 30 HZ with no subs. Not quite full range but close enough for jazz literally and figuratively.


My HT room is small, only about 12 x 14 in its longest length with 10 foot ceilings. I use two UFW-10s for HT and usually one for concert DVDs. The two subs add about 3 DB to SPL at the lower range of its capabilities, thereby elminating roll off ( or decreasing it quite a bit). I get usuable bass to 24 HZ via frequency sweep measurements. Bass is acurately reproduced at sub gains set to about 10 or 11 o'oclock( 40% of max), denon receiver at -14, sub setting at +1. ( Max is +10 or +12). The bass rumbles the house walls on all sides in HT.


Having been a musician for 30 years ( current band tunapilot.com come on down to Tailgate for New Year's if in Houston) I am very picky about how music sounds, including bass. So when Ron Carter plays for J. Monheit, John Clayton for Diana Krall, or Tony Levin for Peter Gabriel, its important to me that the bass sounds like it sounds live. Attacks, balance, decay times, string techniques and inflections- its all got to be there. I personally have yet to hear a sub that can keep up and deliver like the UFW-10. But this is in a small room, where SPL can be achieved up to 90 DB ( measured )- I usually dont listen beyond this personally. The Denon channel test tones start at 75 db and you can increase- I usually match levels across all channels at 78 db; the subs have no problem at all, and like I said can go quite a bit higher.


In general, sealed subs work much better than ported subs for music; this even came up in that thread on the subwoofer shootout November 20th thread.( recommended reading) The ported subs definetely deliver the SPL big time in big rooms as the Axiom ep-500 and SVS PB Ultra clearly show. Sealed subs can't quite do that. But the host of the shootout uses an UFW-12 for music ( a sealed sub) despite having the pick of the litter, in a different room used for music listening only. Music and HT are two different animals for sure.


In Eddies room, in achieving SPL levels, the musical result is likely to be poor;; music listening rooms just dont have those type of dimensions and there is a reason for that. Cranking up a ported sub in a 6000 square foot space while 5 -6 feet away from l and r mains just cant deliver tonal balance and accurate musical reproduction.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhan1000
I don't even think a Rocket UFW-12 would be able to fill your room... 6000 ft^3 is a lot of space to fill. How big was your friend's room?
Dunno, haven't been over to his house yet. Yeah it's an accoustic nightmare of a space that I'm stuck with all right. :(
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by merv43
edster922, I checked out the velodyne dps 12 and B&W 650 (my system is all B&W, matrix 803II htm 805's) both of these subs are great, the velodyne was the same price and the B&W was beyond my reach price wise. I felt the Infinity had a tighter, quicker response than the velodyne in my 22' x 14' basement theater/music room, it was much easier to blend into my system than was the velodyne, if I had been purchasing a sub just for home theater applications I might have have went to the velodyne or maybe tried an hsu or svs sub. Music is the first priority with my system, and even though the Matrix 803's don't need a lot of help in the bottom end in just music, i wanted a sub that would complement them rather than draw attention to itself, and I think the Infinity has done that well. It is a sealed subwoofer rather than vented and I think that is why (in my room) it is so tight and quick. Hope this helps.
Aside from the smaller size of your room, I would think that a basement room would offer outstanding bass reinforcement which my 2nd story room (which also has glass doors on two sides) does not.


Basements...another reason for me to move back up north, besides my love of cold weather! :)
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rysa4
Hi there. Friend here. Eddies listening spot is a near field position about 5-6 feet from speakers in a cavernous elongated L shaped room with very high ceilings and stairs that open to a lower floor. The UFW-10 cannot fill that space. And the listening spot may be in a null or void.


In Eddies room, in achieving SPL levels, the musical result is likely to be poor;; music listening rooms just dont have those type of dimensions and there is a reason for that. Cranking up a ported sub in a 6000 square foot space while 5 -6 feet away from l and r mains just cant deliver tonal balance and accurate musical reproduction.
Funny story: a couple of days I moved my sub (JBL e150that I have always b*tched and moaned about) to the NAD setup in my downstairs bedroom to show to a potential buyer. The bedroom is a normal rectangle, about 11x21 --- lo and behold, I almost did NOT want to sell the JBL, it sounded that much better down there!


Anyways, I think that with my upstairs LR I will just have to sacrifice musicality and tightness for sheer SPL muscle, and a ported sub like the STF-3 or LFM-1 might be the only way to go.



PS. The wife won't THINK of letting me move the main system downstairs and having us sleep in the living room, I've already asked. :D
 

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i absolutely LOVE my LFM-1, i got it for $399 (B-stock).... it really packs a strong punch, it may not roll off as low as the HSU's, but for the price - it's unbeatable!!!
 

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Diy? ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toadster
i absolutely LOVE my LFM-1, i got it for $399 (B-stock).... it really packs a strong punch, it may not roll off as low as the HSU's, but for the price - it's unbeatable!!!
How long ago was that? I thought that b-stock deal was long gone.


I also thought the LFM-1 rolls off as low if not lower than the Hsu subs...isn't it the SVS subs that go lowest?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rysa4
In general, sealed subs work much better than ported subs for music
Hi-


A sealed design with a natural roll-off will have a nice, "musical" group delay profile. The roll-off starts at the natural tuning point of the sub. Many small(er) subs add liberal EQ boost and HPF roll-off, which can make the GD profile the same, if not "worse" than a ported design. If you take a larger ported design that is tuned to 20hz, you'll find a nice, "musical" group delay profile in the typical, musical range (say >35-40hz). What I am saying is be careful of broad generalizations like that. This also assumes a decent price point so other design factors are covered (proper power, rigid enclosure, etc.).


That said, I have a UFW-10 in my family room, which is open on one side. It sounds great with music and is nicely mated to an ELT set-up. Because it does not dig down deep it is easier to dial in for music (not many loud humps covering up the musical range), plus the PEQ let's my tame the next peak. It does not have speaker-level inputs, so you'll need to let your receiver handle all of that. The fit and finish is terrific. This would be my first choice based on your 70-80% music background. In your large room it will not go much deeper than 30hz. Of course, a UFW-12 would dig deeper, but now you are in a whole new price range.


If you want to dig deeper and stay in your price range, the PB10 is a nice sub. I've only listened to it a few times. It does not look as nice and does not have a PEQ, but it will challenge the concept of ported versus sealed at a given price point.


Those are the two subs I've heard out of the bunch.


I can attest that both SVS and AV123 are great to work with, and I encourage bringing in more than one sub for an in-home demo.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweakophyte
Hi-


What I am saying is be careful of broad generalizations like that. This also assumes a decent price point so other design factors are covered (proper power, rigid enclosure, etc.).


That said, I have a UFW-10 in my family room, which is open on one side. It sounds great with music and is nicely mated to an ELT set-up. The fit and finish is terrific. This would be my first choice based on your 70-80% music background.


.
OK. Specifically, the UFW-10 provides a more accurate enjoyable music experience for me than SVS cylinders/boxes as well as HSU 1 and 2, Energy Subwoofers, Boston Acoustics, Mirage, Velodyne, Definitive technology, JBL and Sony.


Subwoofers I have not heard that I would like to hear are the UFW-12. Outlaw subs, Rel Strata and Storm and ERA.


I am glad your choice and mine wound up being the same!

:p
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweakophyte
If you want to dig deeper and stay in your price range, the PB10 is a nice sub. I've only listened to it a few times. It does not look as nice and does not have a PEQ, but it will challenge the concept of ported versus sealed at a given price point.
What about the SVS pb12? I would think it'd be more powerful than the pb10? I wonder how it would compare to the LFM-1 and STF-3.
 
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