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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I borrowed the Epson PowerLite 715c LCD (1200 ANSI lumens, 1024x768, $5699) from work to see how a high-lumen projector would compare to my Electrohome Marquee 8000 CRT.


Here's the exact same camera (4MP Canon S45), on the exact same screen (12'x8' drywall painted with Sherwin Williams Ultra Bright White Matte), with the exact same frame from "Fifth Element" (I have 2 copies, LCD has the "Superbit Edition"). LCD from my laptop at 1024x768. CRT from my HTPC at 1024x768. Both using WinDVD 4.


Tripod, AWB, and auto-exposure.


Give it time to load. It should cycle between 4 images (I used PSP Animation Shop)...

- me standing in front of the screen with both projectors turned on

- screen with both projectors on (but without me)

- just the LCD (higher image)

- just the CRT (lower image and slightly larger)

http://members.aol.com/marcorsyscom/5e.gif


Some observations:


My Marquee is set at Brightness=40 and Contrast=40.


256 color GIFs aren't the best for showing screenshots, but I couldn't do an animated JPG. I'll post larger JPGs separately.


My CRT is slightly stretched because I like the widescreen view, but I don't like the wasted space on the screen, so I stretch it taller. I didn't realize how much taller I was stretching it until seeing how skinny Bruce's face looks here.


The LCD is 6' further back behind the CRT, but I ran out of cord space, so I couldn't get the image any larger. So if anything, it should be about 10% brighter because the image isn't as large.


The LCD image is higher because from the back of the room, I had to get it to shine over my theater seats. I also had to change my usual tripod position because the bulb left a very distinct shadow on the screen when I had it set in front, so I moved it further back and slightly offset. The tripod is usually set right under my ceiling mounted CRT.


I don't want this to be a LCD bashing thread, but I was impressed with the relative brightness of my CRT (with only 225 ANSI lumens vs the Epson's 1200 ANSI lumens!)


I know this LCD projector is 2001 technology, but it's the best I could borrow, and my CRT is from 1995. The LCD's screen door effect was also worse than I remembered from when I'd borrowed the Epson before I bought my CRT. I took some screenshots of SDE too.


Man, I love my Marquee!


-Clarence
 

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Guys!


My first M8000 from five years ago kicked a Dukane 9000 (JVC DILA) in every aspect of picture quality; the DILA was superior only if viewing computer spread sheets all day (no burn-in).
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by marcorsyscom
I borrowed the Epson PowerLite 715c LCD (1200 ANSI lumens, 1024x768, $5699) from work to see how a high-lumen projector would compare to my Electrohome Marquee 8000 CRT.


Here's the exact same camera (4MP Canon S45), on the exact same screen (12'x8' drywall painted with Sherwin Williams Ultra Bright White Matte), with the exact same frame from "Fifth Element" (I have 2 copies, LCD has the "Superbit Edition"). LCD from my laptop at 1024x768. CRT from my HTPC at 1024x768. Both using WinDVD 4.


Tripod, AWB, and auto-exposure.


Give it time to load. It should cycle between 4 images (I used PSP Animation Shop)...

- me standing in front of the screen with both projectors turned on

- screen with both projectors on (but without me)

- just the LCD (higher image)

- just the CRT (lower image and slightly larger)

http://members.aol.com/marcorsyscom/5e.gif


Some observations:


My Marquee is set at Brightness=40 and Contrast=40.


256 color GIFs aren't the best for showing screenshots, but I couldn't do an animated JPG. I'll post larger JPGs separately.


My CRT is slightly stretched because I like the widescreen view, but I don't like the wasted space on the screen, so I stretch it taller. I didn't realize how much taller I was stretching it until seeing how skinny Bruce's face looks here.


The LCD is 6' further back behind the CRT, but I ran out of cord space, so I couldn't get the image any larger. So if anything, it should be about 10% brighter because the image isn't as large.


The LCD image is higher because from the back of the room, I had to get it to shine over my theater seats. I also had to change my usual tripod position because the bulb left a very distinct shadow on the screen when I had it set in front, so I moved it further back and slightly offset. The tripod is usually set right under my ceiling mounted CRT.


I don't want this to be a LCD bashing thread, but I was impressed with the relative brightness of my CRT (with only 225 ANSI lumens vs the Epson's 1200 ANSI lumens!)


I know this LCD projector is 2001 technology, but it's the best I could borrow, and my CRT is from 1995. The LCD's screen door effect was also worse than I remembered from when I'd borrowed the Epson before I bought my CRT. I took some screenshots of SDE too.


Man, I love my Marquee!


-Clarence
Excellent idea !!!!!! This is a perfect way to look and compare. Your file seems to be bleeding together - so cannot really tell anything except that the CRT ROCKS.


Please send me the actual gif animated file - my email is on my profile.


Thanks.
 

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A novel way of comparison and certainly one which merits further refinement.


A couple of suggestions to bring about a more meaningful comparison would be to use the manual white balance setting if available, defined by shining a D65 reference onto the screen beforehand. That should show up differences more fairly.


Using auto exposure is going to even out the differences in light output between the different technologies, so my preference would be to set exposure for the brightest image and use that setting for the other projector. If the latter then produces a camera picture too dark to be meaningful, then revert back to autoexposure but state the exposure settings chosen by the camera. This info is normally stored in the jpeg itself and is accessible by checking the files properties from within Windows.


Cheers :)


Russ
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Quote:
Your file seems to be bleeding together - so cannot really tell anything
OK, I added labels to each of the four frames so you can tell which scene is which. The ones that are bleeding together are when both projectors are on at the same time.


It's a 400K file, so give it a few minutes to finish loading (same file name as before, so just hit refresh and it should update in the first post)

Quote:
use the manual white balance setting if available, defined by shining a D65 reference onto the screen beforehand
I've heard of gray cards at photo stores to set WB. When you say D65, would it be the same if I displayed a full-screen box in Powerpoint filled with 65% gray, then set manual WB?


-Clarence
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
And here's a closup to show the LCD's screen door effect (and my seemingly poor skills at CRT focus)...


The LCD also looks green in comparison in these shots too, but I'm using default settings and no color overlay adjustments on either projector. If I was keeping the LCD for more than a weekend, I'd adjust it to have more red.


LCD:
http://members.aol.com/marcorsyscom/5e-eye-lcd.jpg


CRT:
http://members.aol.com/marcorsyscom/5e-eye-crt.jpg


These are handheld shots, so the focus and angle are slightly off.


-Clarence
 

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Awsome.


Im surprised we hav'nt heard anything from QQQ yet?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Quote:
my preference would be to set exposure for the brightest image and use that setting for the other projector. If the latter then produces a camera picture too dark to be meaningful, then revert back to autoexposure but state the exposure settings chosen by the camera. This info is normally stored in the jpeg itself and is accessible by checking the files properties from within Windows.
Thanks Russ! I didn't know how to find that info:
http://members.aol.com/marcorsyscom/exp-info.png


The "LCD only" shot and the "CRT only" shot both have the exact same settings as shown above.


However, the darker shot of "LCD+CRT on at the same time" was f/3.5, but only had an exposure time of 0.6 sec instead of 1.0 - I guess having both projectors on made the camera think it was brighter, so it didn't need as long for the shutter.


-Clarence
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Hmmm...


I don't know if this series tells more or less than the first shots...


Here, I tried to line up the same image from both projectors. I changed the height and slid the Epson LCD back even further. For the same projected throw (on the same 12x8 screen), the LCD is ~8' further back than my Marquee. I changed the Epson's gamma setting to "Dynamic" to get more red tone (the only settings I could find were Brightness, Contrast, and Gamma).


I was tempted to not label these to see if you could guess which was CRT and which was LCD...

http://members.aol.com/marcorsyscom/e6-anim.gif


Instead of AWB, the camera has the same manual settings on all three shots: F/3.5 for 1 second. I can't figure out why there's a seat reflection only in the combo shot.


My assessment is that the light levels are oddly comparable. Can anybody explain why my 225 ANSI Marquee isn't significantly dimmer than a 1200 lumen LCD?!


I can't think of a nice way to say this, but in real life, at full size (well, larger than full size) I'd have a hard time imagining anyone preferring the LCD's image. And if you're sitting closer than about 10' to the screen, the LCD SDE is too hard to ignore.


-Clarence
 

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Nice comparsion, especially of the screendoor. I wonder how often you watch the screen such that you are right in the action. If you do it often, I can see why you would love the Marquee! :D


The CRTs and the digitals seem to use different methods of measuring their light outputs. The digitals don't even use the same methods across different projectors, so its hard to compare them directly. Just something I've read from others trying to compare these. CRTs are much, much brighter than we all seem to think they are.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
After seeing the animated GIF on the screen, I noticed a few things...


- this is not the same frame on both projectors! I paused my laptop/LCD and then went to my HTPC/CRT and looked for "the frame where her hair is touching the bottom of her left eye (our right)", but if you look at her hair on our right, it's different. I'm amazed the eyes and mouth lined up so well even though the hair is different.


- the LCD's "dynamic" gamma didn't really help her skin color. Does anyone know how to adjust the colors on an Epson LCD?


- I removed the frame with the seat reflection (it was from my flashlight. Doh!)
 

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If you cross your eyes the LCD screendoor pic looks like the Fifth Element on VCD.
 

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To look at the last comparison shots and look at the reflected light on your ceiling, it *appears* that the CRT is putting out more light, more is being reflected onto the ceiling anyway. I think this comparison puts to rest the notion that LCD's are "brighter". What matters is the appearance, I mean we don't watch movies with a calculator and light meter, we use our eyes. If the CRT picture *looks* brighter, more representative of real life, thats what matters isn't it ?

Great series BTW, thanks for posting them.
 

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Hey, we are seen this same kind of difference between CRT and LCD

My old EH2000 beat philips hopper in brighness. Hopper has only 3 times more lightpower that Electrohome. Colors are also... how I can say from other planet.Sorry My english
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Stumbo
Awsome.


Im surprised we hav'nt heard anything from QQQ yet?
Here I am :D.


I would certainly hope that a $23,000 (new) CRT projector would outperform a $5600 1024 x 768 LCD presentation projector.


Now if you had have made the comparison between the $23,000 (new) 8000 and a $13,000 1280 x 720 Marantz S3 projector, you might have an interesting comparison.


I would also note that although the 8000 is 9 years old CRT has made very few REAL advances over the past 10 years - it's a mature technology. Digital on the other hand has made HUGE strides over the past 5 years so I would expect that if you want to do a "real" CRT versus digital comparison you should try to choose a new digital. I think this was an interesting comparison but I think I know what the reaction would be in this forum if I posted a comparison of a state of the art digital projector to an old Zenith 4K CRT projector. I think it would be a pretty silly comparison and pretty sad to use as an example of "digital versus CRT".


BTW, my posts here have NEVER been about claiming digital is better than CRT or visa versa. I have simply tried to present an even handed view of the two technologies.
 

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p.s. Recent LCD models using MLA technology have improved screen door considerably over a model such as this, but even so IMO LCD has the worst picture of the digital technologies. IMO DLP and DILA/LCOS are the real digital "contenders".
 

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p.p.s. And in answer to the thread title "betcha never seen a CRT vs LCD comparison like this!", NO I haven't. Perhaps next week you can do a comparison where you arm wrestle a five year old girl and then post the results about your superior strength :D.
 

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Yup, that about sums it up - CRT is the mighty one, LCD is the 5 year old girl - straight out of the horses mouth.
 
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