AVS Forum banner

1 - 20 of 2332 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,526 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
So this is a very interesting topic and more people might be considering the move to 7.1.6, 9.1.6 or beyond without making the investment that is required for a single processor solution (Trinnov / Datasat).

It feels to me like this is significant enough to justify a dedicated thread so that all the information can be easily found versus reading through the huge Atmos thread.

Hopefully those that have already ventured down this path will join in and share their experience (Nalleh, Scott S.)




I am considering the move to 7.2.6 + if the TM addition is worthwhile (vs TF + TR).


The main HT AVR is the Denon x5200 (+ 5 channel B&K amp).



I also have the Denon x4100 an HDMI failed Denon 4311ci and a Denon 1712 (+ an Audiosource Amp 100).


TIA,
Jason
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,082 Posts
Please see my signature for wiring schematic for the x.x.6 setup that is based on Scott's idea.

My external AVRs are very basic (Denon 1603 and Denon 1803). They do not have any room EQ.
So here's what I have done for level matching the heights

1. Using internal test tones of the AVR, set the LCR levels to 75db.
2. Add of 3 dB to the center. This is to compensate as the extracted center will be bit weaker than the main (height) speakers.
3. Now run Audyssey from main AVR and leaving external AVRs in PL-II mode. Make sure to set the MV on external AVRs to 0.
4. You will see that Audyssey sets fairly long distances (about 22 feet vs actually 6-7 feet) to factor in the delay.
5. Don't alter the distances what Audyssey sets.
6. If you have access to 9.1.6 test tones, when the tones reach the TM, it sounds exactly +3db of other speakers. (e.g. at MV=0 all speakers will be at 85dB while the TM will be 88dB)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
446 Posts
Please see my signature for wiring schematic for the x.x.6 setup that is based on Scott's idea.

My external AVRs are very basic (Denon 1603 and Denon 1803). They do not have any room EQ.
So here's what I have done for level matching the heights

1. Using internal test tones of the AVR, set the LCR levels to 75db.
2. Add of 3 dB to the center. This is to compensate as the extracted center will be bit weaker than the main (height) speakers.
3. Now run Audyssey from main AVR and leaving external AVRs in PL-II mode. Make sure to set the MV on external AVRs to 0.
4. You will see that Audyssey sets fairly long distances (about 22 feet vs actually 6-7 feet) to factor in the delay.
5. Don't alter the distances what Audyssey sets.
6. If you have access to 9.1.6 test tones, when the tones reach the TM, it sounds exactly +3db of other speakers. (e.g. at MV=0 all speakers will be at 85dB while the TM will be 88dB)
Ok, I looked at the wiring diagram but think I'm missing something. I get this is a way to power additional speakers with what you have, but it really isn't the same thing as having an amp that can do .4 or more. I thought the idea behind the new object based formats was to be able to target specific speakers. Using this method, isn't it just taking a specific channel and then sending it to multiple speakers? I don't see how the multi AVRs can process the speaker output in order to then send the signals to the right speaker. Don't get me wrong, I think this is a viable bandaid until the industry AVRs move past their 5.1 standards.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,349 Posts
This thread could be fun....

Mad Scientist Lab Coats not included....

:D

(You guys really don't want me to have any kind of savings or extra cash at all, do you)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,074 Posts
Good, idea. I het asked so much about mine, i had to make a precopied post, lool.

So here is my version:
Well, screw DTS:X. Got tired of waiting, so i tried something else.
Frustrated about the 7.1.4 limit of speaker in Atmos?
Don't want the hassle of 8min config loads to get both Atmos/Auro full setups?
Can't afford the overly expensive Trinnov or Datasat?

Well, i found a way to get 9.1.6 native Atmos and 12.1 Auro 3D with 1 setup!

How?
Well, as you know, i have my Denon 5200, connected to 14 speakers, and it is setup with full 10.1 Auro:
5.1+FH+SH+TS(VOG).
Press the movie remote button and the 9.1.2 Atmos is selected:
5.1+FW+SB+FH.
Ok, since i got over a grand for my old Onkyo 3010 receiver, i used the money to buy a second Denon, this time the little brother: 4100.
So, connected some of the 5200's speakers and some new to get it calibrated, this has amp assign as follows:

Amp Assign: 9.1
Height Speakers: 4 height speakers
Height Layout: Top Middle+Rear Height
Pre-out: Front and rear height

The two receivers are connected using a HDMI from the Zone2 HDMI out from the 5200, that send full image and sound, by the way, to one of the HDMI input on the 4100.

I do not have fronts connected to the 4100, but the 4 ceiling seakers make the new native Atmos setup a full 9.1.6 :
5.1+FW+SB+FH(as before from the 5200) +TM+RH(from the 4100).



The 5200:



The 4100:



Movie button again switch to the full 10.1 Auro setup from the 5200 and with a dual source speaker switch for the Surround backs between 5200/4100 , and i gain the SB from the 4100 on the Auro setup= 12.1.

But wait, there's more. The following are connected to the 4100, eq'd and separatly calibrated from the 5200' speakers.
Side Surround B. Since the 4100 have empty surround speaker post, why not use them with a second set surround speakers placed at ca 80 degrees(surround A at 110 degrees).
Center Height. Same here, empty center speakers posts, so connected another center speaker high on the front wall.

And remember the pesky use of sub pre-out 2 for the Top Surround in Auro 10.1 setup?
Well, the 4100 has 2 brand new seperatly calibrated sub pre-outs available!

Actually, with a second dual source speaker switch, i can use the Atmos RH as SBH in Auro, since the SBH is ganged in SH anyway in Auro 15.1 setup.

So, one could say the following:

Atmos: 5.1+SB+S2+FW+FH+TM+RH+CH=11.1.7

Auro 3D:
5.1+SB+S2+FH+SH+SBH+TS+CH= 17.1

It works!! The lip sync is spot on, and espesially the 6 ceiling speakers really woke up the "spaceious" feeling, and i believe the 4100 will be staying :)

A couple of glitches though, but nothing major, ex. two volum buttons etc. but i can live with them.
And some pics:










It has been updated since this, but the basic function is the same.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,082 Posts
think I'm missing something.
Yes you are. The thread title itself is much clear. It's beyond x.x.4. So you need to have the capability of x.x.4 to begin with to achieve the expansions.

I don't see how the multi AVRs can process the speaker output in order to then send the signals to the right speaker.
AVR will send it to a speaker that thinks it is right. It's your physical arrangement that changes the outcome.

Don't get me wrong, I think this is a viable bandaid until the industry AVRs move past their 5.1 standards.
[/QUOTE]

Industry has already moved past 5.1 long long time ago. It has now moved out of bed channels to a total immersion using objects.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
446 Posts
Yes you are. The thread title itself is much clear. It's beyond x.x.4. So you need to have the capability of x.x.4 to begin with to achieve the expansions.



AVR will send it to a speaker that thinks it is right. It's your physical arrangement that changes the outcome.
Industry has already moved past 5.1 long long time ago. It has now moved out of bed channels to a total immersion using objects.[/QUOTE]
Ok, I read your reply and went back and looked at the diagram again. This time I noticed how the use of preouts to the other avrs could use the 2nd and 3rd amps to drive the speakers.

The part I don't get is how the bitstream from AVR1 can send the discrete signals to the other AVRs.

For example, if you're using a Height or Atmos preout to AVR 2 or 3 and using the LCRs for say TF, TM, TB. how do the AVRs 2 or three know how to drive the channels correctly. They're not receiving the bitstream from AVR1 with all the channels via a single preout, are they?

Also, I assume you're using a smart remote to control the volume of all three AVRs?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,082 Posts
Ok, I read your reply and went back and looked at the diagram again. This time I noticed how the use of preouts to the other avrs could use the 2nd and 3rd amps to drive the speakers.

The part I don't get is how the bitstream from AVR1 can send the discrete signals to the other AVRs.

For example, if you're using a Height or Atmos preout to AVR 2 or 3 and using the LCRs for say TF, TM, TB. how do the AVRs 2 or three know how to drive the channels correctly. They're not receiving the bitstream from AVR1 with all the channels via a single preout, are they?

Also, I assume you're using a smart remote to control the volume of all three AVRs?
It's the PL-II in play, where using a stereo input the LCR output gets generated.
In this case the stereo input is from one side of the height pair that is extracting the corresponding middle (center). You do this with 2 sides aka 2 stereo inputs to extract the extra pair.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,526 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Or in the case of dual Atmos AVR's...

HDMI Zone2 output is 'daisy chained' to the second AVR since it carries the same full audio signal that the first AVR receives.

Then it's just a matter of logically dividing up the speakers depending upon what each AVR is capable of.

If different AVR's are used the better amp section of the two should drive LCR (unless external amplification is in use).

This also means running two independent room calibrations (one per AVR) and then checking levels across all speakers to make sure it's balanced.

If the same brand of AVR's are used the volume should work in tandem with a single remote providing the AVR's share the same volume presets ( 0 db @ power on ).

- Jason
 
  • Like
Reactions: bpassman

·
Registered
Joined
·
446 Posts
Or in the case of dual Atmos AVR's...

HDMI Zone2 output is 'daisy chained' to the second AVR since it carries the same full audio signal that the first AVR receives.

Then it's just a matter of logically dividing up the speakers depending upon what each AVR is capable of.

If different AVR's are used the better amp section of the two should drive LCR (unless external amplification is in use).

This also means running two independent room calibrations (one per AVR) and then checking levels across all speakers to make sure it's balanced.

If the same brand of AVR's are used the volume should work in tandem with a single remote providing the AVR's share the same volume presets ( 0 db @ power on ).

- Jason
Ok, so using this theory...

I could take my Pioneer SC-85 which supports either 5.2.4 or 7.2.2 and add a 2nd AVR that supports x.x.4 then by configuring my SC-85 to use 7.2.2 and a 2nd Zone, I would use the x.x.4 on the 2nd AVR to achieve 7.2.4 using the same bitstream.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,770 Posts
Has anyone tried the Atmos 9.1.6 test tones from the September Demo with any of these setups? Would be interesting to hear the result.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,557 Posts
Or in the case of dual Atmos AVR's...

HDMI Zone2 output is 'daisy chained' to the second AVR since it carries the same full audio signal that the first AVR receives.

Then it's just a matter of logically dividing up the speakers depending upon what each AVR is capable of.

If different AVR's are used the better amp section of the two should drive LCR (unless external amplification is in use).

This also means running two independent room calibrations (one per AVR) and then checking levels across all speakers to make sure it's balanced.

If the same brand of AVR's are used the volume should work in tandem with a single remote providing the AVR's share the same volume presets ( 0 db @ power on ).

- Jason

I get what you're trying to do here (in theory), but unless my understanding of Atmos is flawed, daisy-chaining receivers is not going to work in the expected manner.

Because the second AVR can't "remove" the extended channel information that the first AVR is processing, it's going to duplicate the information it the extended channels that it's taking care of.

For example, talking height channels only:

AVR1 is taking care of TBR/TBL, and you want AVR2 to take care of TMR/TML + TFR/TFL. When AVR2 is rendering the effects for TMR/TML + TFR/TFL, it's going to include stuff (as opposed to exclude) effects that AVR1 is already collapsing into TBR/TBL, because it doesn't know that AVR is in the chain already rendering the TBR/TBL channels.

Unless I'm missing something???
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27,015 Posts
I want to support this thread, but I don't have time to write up a long post about what I've done in my theater. Here's a post I wrote in the Atmos thread last year:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...ad-home-theater-version-931.html#post36474026

I am now up and running with a 7.1.7 Atmos configuration utilizing two AVRs: a Denon X5200W and an older ProLogic II receiver (Marantz SR4400) that I picked up off Craig's List for a song.

I have 15 speakers installed. (Yes, I realize that 7+7=14. Bear with me.)



That's 7.1 speakers on the ground, 2 Front Heights, 2 Top Middles, 2 Top Rears, and 2 speakers installed directly over my seats that are ganged together into a Voice-of-God array.



The Denon X5200W drives the 7.1 on the ground and the 2 Front Heights. The stereo pre-outs for the Top Middle channels are then fed into the Marantz receiver, which uses ProLogic II to matrix a center Voice-of-God between them and 2 surround channels for the Top Rears.



This differs from Scott's configuration in that it only requires two AVRs (not three) and yet yields an extra channel for the V-o-G.

If Scott's system has been called SCatmos, I hereby call mine Zatmos! :)
Here's an article I wrote about it with additional details and photos:

http://www.highdefdigest.com/blog/customizing-dolby-atmos-more-speakers/
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,660 Posts
Thanks for starting the thread.

Sorry if I have missed it. How are you guys that are using 2 AVR's controlling volume since that is the only parameter on the second AVR that you would want to change?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,526 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Ok, so using this theory...

I could take my Pioneer SC-85 which supports either 5.2.4 or 7.2.2 and add a 2nd AVR that supports x.x.4 then by configuring my SC-85 to use 7.2.2 and a 2nd Zone, I would use the x.x.4 on the 2nd AVR to achieve 7.2.4 using the same bitstream.
In theory... I am right there with you however as I have not done this as of yet. ;)


I get what you're trying to do here (in theory), but unless my understanding of Atmos is flawed, daisy-chaining receivers is not going to work in the expected manner.

Because the second AVR can't "remove" the extended channel information that the first AVR is processing, it's going to duplicate the information it the extended channels that it's taking care of.

For example, talking height channels only:

AVR1 is taking care of TBR/TBL, and you want AVR2 to take care of TMR/TML + TFR/TFL. When AVR2 is rendering the effects for TMR/TML + TFR/TFL, it's going to include stuff (as opposed to exclude) effects that AVR1 is already collapsing into TBR/TBL, because it doesn't know that AVR is in the chain already rendering the TBR/TBL channels.

Unless I'm missing something???
Very good points and sounds logical to me.
I have not done this set-up yet, I am still in the research phase which is why I started the thread (so we could have thread dedicated to this topic).

I think there are AVS'ers that have done this so I'll leave the functionality comments to them.

It is certainly possible that the PLII extraction method is the best option for a cost effective solution beyond 7.1.4.





Thanks for the contributions,
- Jason
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,082 Posts
Has anyone tried the Atmos 9.1.6 test tones from the September Demo with any of these setups? Would be interesting to hear the result.
Yes. What exactly are you looking for?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,074 Posts
Ok, so using this theory...

I could take my Pioneer SC-85 which supports either 5.2.4 or 7.2.2 and add a 2nd AVR that supports x.x.4 then by configuring my SC-85 to use 7.2.2 and a 2nd Zone, I would use the x.x.4 on the 2nd AVR to achieve 7.2.4 using the same bitstream.
In theory, yes. However i would advise to get the 7.1.4 capable AVR in the first place. Much less hasle. If you want to go beyond that, then these methods come into play.
Besides, the whole Zone2 HDMI OUT trick is depentent on your AVR sending a untouched, unprocessed signal out.
Denon does that, but others may just send stereo.

Has anyone tried the Atmos 9.1.6 test tones from the September Demo with any of these setups? Would be interesting to hear the result.
I would love to, but those demo discs are to expensive on Ebay.

I get what you're trying to do here (in theory), but unless my understanding of Atmos is flawed, daisy-chaining receivers is not going to work in the expected manner.

Because the second AVR can't "remove" the extended channel information that the first AVR is processing, it's going to duplicate the information it the extended channels that it's taking care of.

For example, talking height channels only:

AVR1 is taking care of TBR/TBL, and you want AVR2 to take care of TMR/TML + TFR/TFL. When AVR2 is rendering the effects for TMR/TML + TFR/TFL, it's going to include stuff (as opposed to exclude) effects that AVR1 is already collapsing into TBR/TBL, because it doesn't know that AVR is in the chain already rendering the TBR/TBL channels.

Unless I'm missing something???
You are correct, the two AVR's do not know of each other, but in my exerience it still works pretty well.

Thanks for starting the thread.

Sorry if I have missed it. How are you guys that are using 2 AVR's controlling volume since that is the only parameter on the second AVR that you would want to change?
Well, not the only parameter, but in my case, the 7200 has several remote ID's to choose from, so by switching to ID2, they don't cross.

Or you could tape over one AVRS's remote sensor, and control it by phone app.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DaGamePimp

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,526 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Some fantastic feedback guys, much appreciated!


I'm torn on which method to try first. :eek:


- Jason
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,082 Posts
Yeah 2 additional AVRs can get you .6 or .8! 4 additional AVRs can get you 9.x.8!

Expanding via PLII for .6 or wides is pretty straight forward and @Scott Simonian has a great diagram to show proper hookup.

You can also go .8 from .4 using PLIIx in an advanced setup. You would need 2X 7.1 AVRs that have a 5.1 analog input for multi-channel. (Call these Matrix AVRs)

Setup using PLIIx:
Results will be a smooth pan over all 4 sets speakers from Back to Front or Front to Back. Can test using the Audiosphere Atmos Demo.

TFL (Top Front Left) Pre out of Atmos AVR to the Surround Left input of Matrix AVR1
TRL (Top Rear Left) Pre out of Atmos AVR to the Surround Right of Matrix AVR1.

Matrix AVR 1 Outputs:
Left Surround=FHL
Left Rear Surround=TFL
Right Surround=TRL
Right Rear Surround=RHL

Repeat steps for Right Side

TFR (Top Front Right) Pre out of Atmos AVR to the Surround Left input of Matrix AVR2
TRR (Top Rear Right) Pre out of Atmos AVR to the Surround Right of Matrix AVR2.

Matrix AVR 2 Outputs:
Left Surround=FHR
Left Rear Surround=TFR
Right Surround=TRR
Right Rear Surround=RHR

Calibrate only using the TF+TR into the side surround or left/right inputs first. Then rewire like above and use PLIIx.

I tested this, after another member "theorized" it and it actually works!
But I believe there are limited number of AVRs that do 5.1 to 7.1.
May be if anyone knows the exact make and model that do it would be helpful for someone who wants to get .8 out of .4
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,526 Posts
Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
Theory... Idea... any thoughts?


2 of these PLII decoders to add TM using Scott's dual PLII AVR 7.1.6 method (providing one has external amplification)....


or would a device like this simply not encode 2 channel to PL?
* It states that the 2 channel is converted to 5.1... so the plot thickens.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-5-1-Channel-DTS-AC3-HD-Audio-Rush-Digital-Surround-Sound-Decoder/281532563178?_trksid=p2045573.c100033.m2042&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131017132637%26meid%3D86faaf0ad87644af8e1a441ec6aecf65%26pid%3D100033%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D281532563178


I figure using the 2 channel AUX (blue) input and then output to external amp via the FL, FR, CEN





- Jason
 
1 - 20 of 2332 Posts
Top