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Bezel Black -- Is it Possible

1307 Views 13 Replies 10 Participants Last post by HoustonPerson, Jun 21, 2008

rwr1776

Discussion Starter · Jun 18, 2008

I've been thinking about this and am looking for some people's perspectives.

First some assumption validation. I assume that no panel actively produces the "color" black. Rather, black is simply the absence of any color or light produced by the panel.

If this is correct, then it goes to follow that, objectively, the blackest a panel could possibly get is what it looks like when its off. Subjectively is a completely different story and will be significantly affected by contrast and how bright specific images may be at any given time.

So, when I look at several panels while they are off, there is a pretty big difference among them when comparing the off panel to the bezel. However, when just looking at the off panel itself, I see very little difference between brands, even those I know have big difference when operating.

I don't want to get into brands here because then it changes the whole discussion, but some brands have lighter bezels than others. Some brands use glossy bezels and some use flat.

Since all panels look about the same when off, these seem to most closely match the bezel when manufacturers use the following:

Matte Gray -- practically no difference between color of off panel and bezel

Glossy Gray

Matte Black

Glossy Black -- significant difference between color of off panel and bezel

So, if the best a panel can do is get a black as it is when off and few are going to get that dark, wouldn't it be true that when compared to the bezel those brands with lighter and/or matte bezels would look to produce darker blacks?

Thoughts...

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hamsamish09

· #2 · Jun 18, 2008

In a day lit room you may be correct but, in a dark setting you should be able to see how bright a backlight (lcd) or idle luminance (plasma) leaves dark or black scenes. I have seen some pictures of newly released plasma's where the border (2.35:1 ) was as black as the glossy bezel on a video. I cant speak for dlp as I don't know anyone with one.

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drgkja

· #3 · Jun 18, 2008

while the plasma technology is improving and the blacks are likely to get darker, currently the plasma pixels never go fully dark (so no total black) as they are kept primed with some minimum current so that they can be truned on quickly

Quote:
Originally Posted by hamsamish09 /forum/post/14110085

In a day lit room you may be correct but, in a dark setting you should be able to see how bright a backlight (lcd) or idle luminance (plasma) leaves dark or black scenes. I have seen some pictures of newly released plasma's where the border (2.35:1 ) was as black as the glossy bezel on a video. I cant speak for dlp as I don't know anyone with one.

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rwr1776

Discussion Starter · #4 · Jun 18, 2008

What I think you are saying is at some point as a room gets darker, and the display is off, a viewer can no longer distinguish between the off panel and the bezel regardless of bezel color. However, turning on even the best panel will will increase the luminance some amount and that may be enough to make the panel visible again.

The darker the room the more luminance would needed I suppose. Of course, the lighter the bezel, the less so if you wanted to compare across displays I suppose you'd need to find ones that had similarly colored bezels.

I've attached a picture from my Display. It seems like the black areas merge perfectly into the bezel, but I know that the panel cannot be any darker than it was when it was off (just like for any other panel) and that is several shades lighter than the bezel because this mfr uses a very dark and glossy bezel.

So, what we're saying here is that is because the room is darker it creates the illusion that the panel is as dark as the bezel?

At some point, I suppose a MFR will learn to actively create black just like other colors, but that may well be what's referred to an infinite black...dunno.

Update: Oops, forgot to UL the picture before.

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rwr1776

Discussion Starter · #5 · Jun 18, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by drgkja /forum/post/14110354

while the plasma technology is improving and the blacks are likely to get darker, currently the plasma pixels never go fully dark (so no total black) as they are kept primed with some minimum current so that they can be truned on quickly

Right...so my original assumption is correct, that a panel can never get more dark than it appears when off. I know that may sound like a silly and basic question, but I'm just wanting to confirm there isn't some magic physics I'm unaware of because even Kuro Elite panels look lighter than their bezels when off, and Elites are not even to darkest bezels out there...probably for, in part, the very reason I'm raising.

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ogbuehi

· #6 · Jun 18, 2008

Plus you're assuming that bezel is pure black. I've bought a black car, only to find out that it was really a dark green. I'm not too hip on technical talk but I remember hearing about some technology able to achieve infinite contrast ratio because the set was able to turn off pixels to represent black.

On a side not, my now defunct HDCRT seemed to produce darker blacks than the screen when it's off. This is with lights on or off. I know that it's a different technology but it's just what I have observed.

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killswitch_19

· #7 · Jun 18, 2008

It's a weird thing, but when a panel such as this years Samsung and Panasonic are off in a lit room there's a green tinge to the screen that is nowhere near bezel black. However, when on in a dark room and set up properly the black bars in movies are far blacker than that greenish panel when it's off.

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avslogin

· #8 · Jun 18, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by killswitch_19 /forum/post/14110551

It's a weird thing, but when a panel such as this years Samsung and Panasonic are off in a lit room there's a green tinge to the screen that is nowhere near bezel black. However, when on in a dark room and set up properly the black bars in movies are far blacker than that greenish panel when it's off.

I don't know about the Samsung, but I think the "tinted" screen on the Panasonic is a function of the anti-glare coating on the latest models. In fact, I wouldn't even call it tinted, but when the display is off and there is bright sunlight reflecting off the glass, there seems to be a prismatic effect which occurs relative to the angle the light bounces off the screen. I wouldn't worry about it.

As far as 'ultimate black' as a function of zero luminance is concerned, OLED is the closest thing I have heard of.

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rwr1776

Discussion Starter · #9 · Jun 18, 2008

Added that picture I referenced to my post above...

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D-Nice

· #10 · Jun 18, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by drgkja /forum/post/14110354

while the plasma technology is improving and the blacks are likely to get darker, currently the plasma pixels never go fully dark (so no total black) as they are kept primed with some minimum current so that they can be truned on quickly

Not true anymore as the 9G Kuros are capable of 0fl (absolute black) on a 0% stimuli pattern.

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surap

· #11 · Jun 18, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice /forum/post/14110954

Not true anymore as the 9G Kuros are capable of 0fl (absolute black) on a 0% stimuli pattern.

So in a word we are extremely near the G10 specs already?

Awesome. My wallet is really itching now....

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drgkja

· #12 · Jun 21, 2008

i had heard about in tid bits coming from the last ces show but i thought that 0 stimuli will be in post 9G sets. ( that is why i said the technology is will get better, blacks will get darker)

i have not had the fortune of seeing a 9G, with 0 stimuli, the black should be near perfect.....are they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice /forum/post/14110954

Not true anymore as the 9G Kuros are capable of 0fl (absolute black) on a 0% stimuli pattern.

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johnnybrulez

· #13 · Jun 21, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by surap /forum/post/14111335

So in a word we are extremely near the G10 specs already?

Awesome. My wallet is really itching now....

No.. because the black level does not stay there.

I wonder how close it really is. 0 ftl black on a black screen is great... lets throw in a few white dots in the middle and see if it stays that way. That's when things get interesting.

But, in most cases, Kuro is extremely black even w/o 0ftl black screen because of the contrasty nature of movies. So if you're watching in total darkness, the difference should be staggering. If you got a light on, you should see quite the increase in performance.

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HoustonPerson

· #14 · Jun 21, 2008

Phosphor Glow

Take any high quality Plasma and a quality Trinitron CRT, and place them in a 100% black room (the sets must be off) for at least two hours.

Both screens should be black (not visible) at that point. Now turn on all the lights (leave the TV's off), the brighter the room the better, for at least 15 minutes (bring even more lights into the room if you have too).

Now turn all the lights off. Both the plasma and the Trinitron will be glowing gray with the power off. I have seen some Trinitrons glowing for 2 hours, after the lights are out.

Under operation a plasma set can add additional discharge, to make that gray blacker under operation. In order to see (or not see that in this case) the source material must also be producing black (digital 16 or less). A very small percentage of source material has digital 16 or less in it. Much of today's source material will only get as low as 20.

Many of the high quality LCD sets will create additional black, thus on a normal average HD source, it can and will make the 20 black look like a 16; thus the 16-20 are crushed. But most viewers do not pick up on that. They do often see on a plasma - more black detail (even looking gray-er at times); because there is less crushing in the 16-20 range.

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