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Biwiring?

998 Views 26 Replies 17 Participants Last post by  Morbius
I just purchased a set of speakers and all of them are capable of being biwired. What exactly does biwiring accomplish? From a newbie perspective it appears to me that it just doubles the amoung of wire to carry the signal from the amp to the speaker, that and doubles the cost of wiring your speakers.


There must be more to it than that.....


gl'er
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Nope... That's really at it does.


You will hear lots of mumbo-jumbo about how it makes the sound "better" for various psuedo-science reasons. But electrical theory shows there is no difference between bi-wiring and using double the amount (gage) of wire.


And no one has ever shown a double-blind test were anyone could hear the difference.
Listen to Chuck; save your money for more music/films.


Enjoy your speakers.


Claude
You might take a small piece of speaker wire and replace the gold plate jumpers between the two posts for improved performance. I felt it was a solid upgrade for a buck. :)
I will be puting 4 cond wire for bi-wiring in wall in case at a later date l would like to bi-amp the wire is there allready.As to if it will sound better bi-wiring in 2 months or so l will post what l hear when house is done and l buy everything and hook it up.
Chuck is right. Biwiring is a concept pushed by people who sell very expensive speaker wire. That fact alone should tell you all you need to know.


I like to extrapolate this concept to a much larger one: when you are trying to figure something out, think like an investigative reporter. And the first thing they teach you in investigative reporter school is FOLLOW THE $$$$$$. Thinking this way makes a lot of things make more sense, like boxing.


Tim
Though.. if you are planning to Bi- AMP later on.. it wouldn't hurt to just bi wire now.. and when the time comes that you have your new amp.. you can just take the two cables apart.. and there you go...


But if you do not plan to bi- amp. just wire it the normal way..


I acctually have mine bi wired.. cause i plan to get an extra amp later on anyway....
Actually, the act of bi-wiring, which is defined by using different sets of wires for the Tweeter and Woofer, creates stochastic phase errors in the respone of the drivers. The drivers will not work as well when their part of the crossover is fed with unequal signals from the amplifier. Here is an excellent link that describes this problem further:

http://www.sonicdesign.se/biwire.html


The act of bi-amping, which places an electronic crossover before the amplifer and driving the tweeter and woofer with different amplifier channels, is completely acceptable.
That link is a mixture of circuit analysis and pseudo-science. First, the pseudo-science:


"What does this sound like? Well, usually, just as you may expect from physics, it appears as a change in the reproduction of space and sound stage. Often, the first impression is that the "biwired" sound presents extended "dimensions", more "air", and is more "living". The impression after a week or month, however, is that all recordings sound very much alike, and the "airiness" appears on all records. It does not even sound like air anymore, instead more like a slime that pollutes every record you play. No wonder, since it is not a real, recorded quality but a "speaker characteristic" added to all reproduced material. "Sameness" is another word for it."


I would not expect from physics to hear a change in the soundstage. I don't know how I could physically analyze anything to do with "soundstage," as there does not exist even a physical definition of the term.


As for the circuit analysis, he uses a lumped circuit model for the cable of 50 milliohms in series with 8 microhenries. This is a pretty good start, but 50 milliohms is a little high. However, the resonance of the cable inductance with the capacitance of the crossover contributes a paltry 3 degrees of phase error. This phase error is dwarfed by the phase errors inherent in the speaker. Furthermore, the circuit model used is simply wrong. The models of the low and high frequency drivers are grossly oversimplified, and the cable should be modeled as a distributed network, with per unit length elements. Using a better model would wash away that phase error.


Anybody that reads that website with their bullsh*t detector turned to the ON position will have alarms going off.


Tim
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For us that want to Bi-amp either now or in the future....

what active cross-overs are recomended?
Quote:
Originally posted by slewis
For us that want to Bi-amp either now or in the future....

what active cross-overs are recomended?
There are other threads about this, and you will get all sorts of recommendations, but based on MY experience (YMMV):


1. Passive bi-amping is fine, go ahead, have a good time, just don't expect miracles.


2. If you want miracles, you have to go active. HOWEVER, unless this is something you're doing for pleasure while you're not at your day job as a speaker designer, don't do active xovers unless the speaker is designed with them in mind. Get some speakers that are already active, or use something like Linn, which provides active xovers for their speakers and a mechanism for disabling the passive xovers.


Most important is taking the passive xover out of the circuit (and surely voiding any and all warranties if the speaker isn't intended for this treatment). If you ignore this and run active/passive at the same time, you will succeed in making your speakers sound different, and you will, for a while (duration determined by your emotional investment in the outcome) convince yourself that you've succeeded in improving the speaker. After some time, you'll realize that you've wasted time and money.


Claude
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Quote:
Originally posted by nutt


As for the circuit analysis, he uses a lumped circuit model for the cable of 50 milliohms in series with 8 microhenries. This is a pretty good start, but 50 milliohms is a little high. However, the resonance of the cable inductance with the capacitance of the crossover contributes a paltry 3 degrees of phase error. This phase error is dwarfed by the phase errors inherent in the speaker. Furthermore, the circuit model used is simply wrong. The models of the low and high frequency drivers are grossly oversimplified, and the cable should be modeled as a distributed network, with per unit length elements. Using a better model would wash away that phase error.

[/b]
Tim,


Upon a more deeper analysis of this artical, you are exactly right in at least one context. In the larger scheme of things, a 3 degree phase error is very minute, especially with the phase errors of the drivers as well as the driver/listener placement.


Since this is a simulated analysis, a better solution would be to do an actual anaylsis and measure phase/frequency differences between biwire and single wire configurations. I may do this sometime in the future when I have a lab setup.
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Aaron,


You also are exactly right. The way to really get at the question of whether biamping makes a difference would be to get an amp and some speakers in the lab and measure, rather than simulating a flawed model. In fact, it is probably the only acceptable approach, because it would be practically impossible to model the circuit so well that you could discern phase error down to the level of a single degree.


Tim
This is from a response I posted in the Remote Central Forum a year ago, when someone asked about bi-wiring vs. bi-amping:


About bi-wiring, there would be no effective crossover differences. As for bi-amping, the reduced loads on the respective amp sections would be beneficial. However, the ideal bi-amping situation would include an active (i.e., in the line-level stage, between pre-amp and amps) crossover, which presents its own caveats:


The crossover components within the speakers should be bypassed, i.e., wires run directly from cabinet terminals to driver terminals, because:


All amplifiers not only start the driver diaphragms into motion when fed an input signal, but also control and/or stop such motion when the signal changes/stops. This ability is determined by the "source" impedance of the amplifier's output stage, and is typically known as "damping factor". Yes, sources have impedance ratings, just like loads do. Source impedance is the ability of a source to not be affected by the load, which is why a larger power supply (or battery) will drop voltage less than a smaller one with increased load current.


Solid state amps usually have a very low (
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how is replacing the jumper bars w/wires better. I have never heard of this before.
here is what vandersteen, a man who knows about speakers design, got to say regarding bi-wiring speakers...


http://www.vandersteen.com/pages/Answr7.htm
Quote:
Originally posted by Billie
here is what vandersteen, a man who knows about speakers design, got to say regarding bi-wiring speakers...


http://www.vandersteen.com/pages/Answr7.htm
He's a man who also knows how to sell speakers. When it comes down to truth vs. money, which do you think will win?


Besides, he said two different lengths of quality cable will sound different. How can I accept anything else he says as being in any way truthful?
bigus, i would see your point if the guy sells speaker cables. anyway, i bi-wired my main speakers i thought the bass became a little tighter, expected better trebbles...but i didn't think i could tell in the dbt scenario.


shorter speaker cable is always preferable when possible; so longer speaker cable is always less desirable. i can see why the differences in cable length can affect the sound...but how much the difference in length will affect the sound?
I heard a noticable improvement in my MG20's with biwiring and I am not one to spend alot on speakers cables. I really think it depends on your system. You could try it with some inexpensive wire to begin to see if you can tell the difference.
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