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Discussion Starter #1
All,

I'm new to the forum and was hoping to leverage peoples experience to help me setup a new HT. Moving into a new house and have the opportunity to start from scratch. (and would have been better to spell *Diamond correctly...can't seem to edit this now. oh well)


My room is 17' wide and 29' long. 3 windows along the outside, east wall. My plan is to pick up an Epson 5010 and BD Fixed Reference 113" 1.4gain (16:9). Since I'll have some side ambient light, I want to be sure that I'm putting together the best solution to help get maximum contrast and brightness in the setup. I figured the Epson 5010 (or 8700UB), with 2,400 lumens and 200k:1 contrast ratio, couple to the BD 1.4 gain screen, would get me there.


Here's my question. Is there a DIY screen solution, that would equal the marketed performance of the BD screen? Not sure if a painted screen, or similar, would be a "performance comparable" solution? Obviously much less expensive, but I'm not interested unless the contrast and ambient light performance is not as good.


I'm open to suggestions from learned experience. Apologies if this has been covered before, just thought I'd throw it out there and see what recommendations come back. Many thanks in advance.


Edit: The projector will be ceiling mounted, about 12' from the screen. Pool table, dart board, etc. in the back of the room. So half is for viewing movies, football, etc. while the back of the room is for playing.
 

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DIY Granddad (w/help)
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Cooleyone,


A Silver Fire 2.5 5.0 mix sprayed upon a sheet of Sintra can easily equal a BD 1.4, and surpass it in the case of noticeable screen artifacts (ie: less graininess)


Your PJ (5010 is a Bomb!) and it's short throw are deciding factors, as such allows for a considerably darker Gray surface. It's the introduction of "Gain" into the equation, and how that is accomplished that makes the difference. The BD lineup certainly can accomplish your goal, but my own experience and that of a great many others is that the graininess and color push of the BD (....the latter is usually correctable via calibration...) all too often offsets any advantages.


A SF 5.0 screen is not quite as dark as a BD 1.4 (...almost though...) and it's reflective material content is of a finer granularity index, so any viewable artifacts are substantially reduced. Basically speaking, such artifacts manifest themselves the most when people sit within a 1.25:1 viewing distance-to-screen width ratio...and then usually only when the brightest, lightest color content is viewed.


With all of the above taken into account, one cannot overlook the gross disparity in cost as being all the more reason that a SF solution is so very much more highly desirable.


Real costs involve;


Sprayer - $60.00 incl Freight

Paint Supplies - $75-80.00

Sintra (5'x 10' cut to size) - $125.00

Trim & Black Velvet - $50.00

Misc. Supplies - $25.00


Est. Total $340.00 "Top End"


BD 1.4? 10x that amount or more.



So....over some time, the SF family has more than proved it's worthiness. It was originally designed almost 7 years ago on a "dare" to equal or surpass the Sony Chroma View, and it accomplished that easily enough. Now we are approaching DNP SuperNova performance levels. It all boils down to really being a difference between DIY activism and "I just want to buy something and get it over with." It most certainly is NOT a case of "You get what you pay for", because if that was true, the BD 1.4 would have a ignition key and you'd also be driving yourself back and forth to work in it!
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks very much for the reply. When you say the SF 5.0 is not quite as dark as the BD, what exactly do you mean. YOu mean the screen itself is not as dark, or that the Blacks will not be quite as dark?


Is there a link that walks through a DIY construction for this setup?


Finally, not to distract from the screen comments, but you think I'm on the right track with the 5010?


Again, its the pairing together of a good projector, that has high lumens, high contrast ratio, big color, coupled with a screen solution that helps to "return the effort" of the PJ. With a room that will have lots of ambient light, trying to get as close to a 120" LED TV as I can! Lol
 

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DIY Granddad (w/help)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooleyone  /t/1419985/black-diamond-1-4-vs-diy#post_22215230


Thanks very much for the reply. When you say the SF 5.0 is not quite as dark as the BD, what exactly do you mean. YOu mean the screen itself is not as dark, or that the Blacks will not be quite as dark?

Is there a link that walks through a DIY construction for this setup?

Finally, not to distract from the screen comments, but you think I'm on the right track with the 5010?

Again, its the pairing together of a good projector, that has high lumens, high contrast ratio, big color, coupled with a screen solution that helps to "return the effort" of the PJ. With a room that will have lots of ambient light, trying to get as close to a 120" LED TV as I can! Lol

....and who can blame ya?



I was referring to the Screen's color shade of Gray. Black levels with SF 2.5 5.0 will be "Interstellar" so that is not a consideration.


You will want to optimize your Lumen output by placing the PJ as close to the forward 10% to 20% of the available Throw distance.


As far as the 5010, you betcha...it's a great machine. I usually use the 6010 myself, but not because it's head & shoulders above the 6010 performance wise, but simply because the extended warranty, extra Lamp, provided dedicated Mount, Black case, and the ultra low price I can get it for simply makes it the preferred one to choose for a custom Install.


Instructions abound, as there has been as of late several members who have posted their projects and end results. In any case, you just know that any questions you might have as you proceed will be promptly addressed, via this thread or if you send a PM. All that is ever asked in return is that you make a conspicuous effort to relate your experience as you go forward, and post up some Screenies at the end. Describe your results...be they Great...Good...Bad...or indifferent, just tell it as it is.


No worries there....we don't see very many disappointing posts come up if the correct materials, painting procedure and technique, and PJ/Room set up advice is followed.


Above all else...if you have a question, concern or consideration, post it up and wait for a answer before you go on. Not doing so is about the only time we see the Crying Towel take a soakin'.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Sorry, didn't quite catch yer drift on the SF 2.5 5.0 and interstellar not an consideration. I've just read one of your previous posts that discussed the different OUNCES of ingredients, 1.0 up to 5.0 I think. I didn't learn yet why one would choose 1.0 vs. 5.0 on the quantity of 'stuff'. Can you tell I'm a noob? Lol Why not just go with a darker Gray - tradeoffs I need to know about?


The throw distance of the 5010 says 1.34 to 2.87. Not sure how to translate that into feet from the screen. Is it 1.34 x (screen height) = minimum distance? In that case, having the projector at 8" from a 120" screen would yield solid results, in the "sweet spot" would you say?


ps - http://www.artsupply.com/foamcore/sintraboard.htm has Sintra sheets at pretty good prices? Recommend 3mm or 6mm?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooleyone  /t/1419985/black-diamond-1-4-vs-diy#post_22215484


Sorry, didn't quite catch yer drift on the SF 2.5 5.0 and interstellar not an consideration.

More explicitly put, the black levels using a SF 2.5 5.0 would be / are so deep that any worrying about their depth and quality would not be under consideration. And what's oblique about using "Interstellar' as a descriptive phrase? I suppose "Blacker than a lump of Coal in a Dark Closet" or Blacker than the bottom of a Mine shaft" would be more 'earthly'.

Quote:
I've just read one of your previous posts that discussed the different OUNCES of ingredients, 1.0 up to 5.0 I think. I didn't learn yet why one would choose 1.0 vs. 5.0 on the quantity of 'stuff'. Can you tell I'm a noob? Lol Why not just go with a darker Gray - tradeoffs I need to know about?

Lottsa reasons, that's why SF is made to be almost infinitely adjustable. Some PJs in some environments might be more than adequate at producing a deeply contrasted and dynamic image on a white surface, but fall short if any degree of ambient light is present. (...usually lower lumen output means better Black rendition but doesn't leave much "oomph" as far as counteracting intrusive light...) Some PJ / room Combos only need a mid-tone Gray surface to get'ter dun. In the case of an adjustable application such as SF, you choose (...or are told what to use...
) a specific amount of SF Colorant to add to the Reflective / Viscosity bases to achieve a shade of Gray that can both resist whatever level of ambient light intrusion is present and still balance out reflectivity as equates to the PJ's lamp output.


You don't want to start out with so dark a surface that when a lamp starts to go dimmer, you lose all the "PoP & Sizzle" you started out with, but you do want to start out with something that allows optimal performance on Low lamp so upping lamp output later can help maintain a balance. You can well believe that most every Screen Mfg doesn't even begin to bother to take such into account, leaving you to find out yourself at that future date.


On the contrary, on this DIY Forum resides many varied and different examples of pro-active DIY'ers who between them have combined a load of experience using about every PJ worth considering (...and a few you wouldn't consider as well...) It is considered an obligation by us to have any willing member receive the absolute best possible Screen application for their given circumstances. No Mfg Screen offers such adjust-ability, so hence is why SF is made to be as adjustable as it is. We could have just posted 2-3 levels, but then someone would be left in a "halfway there...too far" position


Trade offs? Go too dark for your PJ's output and you get a dull, dim image. Go too dark for your room's lighting and the image will again be less dynamic because you took the "Black Screen" equation too far. Most such Mfg Screens simply have to do that...and that is one reason that SI-BD absolutely had to start offering a Screen with a purported 1.4 gain, so as to compensate for the PJs out there that have barely enough Lumens to drive into such dark surface. By my and others reasoning, the BD isn't in the same category as the best of the best of such Mfg Screens, the DNP Supernova. And that type screen is at the level we aspire to make SF applications reach and achieve. And we already are pretty damnable close in many respects.


One aspect of a SF Screen of any shade is that it's not entirely about ambient light resistance, but also about optimizing the Black levels the Pj can produce. Sometimes, even in an ideally suitable room environment, the PJ itself can use a bit of a boost as far as achieving the deepest level of Contrast while maintaining excellent Color and Whites. The Epson 8350 is an excellent case in point. Combined with a SF 2.5 3.0 and a 110" diagonal Screen under "normal" amounts of non-directed ambient light and it's performance ca easily be compared to the 5010 / 6010.
Quote:
The throw distance of the 5010 says 1.34 to 2.87. Not sure how to translate that into feet from the screen. Is it 1.34 x (screen height) = minimum distance? In that case, having the projector at 8" from a 120" screen would yield solid results, in the "sweet spot" would you say?

First off, 120" diagonal from 8' isn't ever gonna be a possibility with the 5010's focal length. At best, and staying within the prescribed percentage of minimum Throw, the available (...and suggested...) distance from the Screen would be 12' 6". That would be the "Sweet Spot" as far as optimizing lamp output as relates to "off the Screen" foot lambert performance. (...as wholly dependent upon the Screen's surface reflectivity...)
Quote:
ps - http://www.artsupply.com/foamcore/sintraboard.htm has Sintra sheets at pretty good prices? Recommend 3mm or 6mm?

6mm is usually preferred, especially if you can simply hang the sheet directly against the wall. 6mm is pretty much self supportive and retains a Flat character. 3mm is pretty darn floppy and unless it's adhered properly to the wall or a substrate, it can have a bit of bowing or slight waviness due to it's flexibility. Under such circumstances, unless adhered to the wall with a thin adhesive, it's almost always mounted to a Frame or substrate before hanging.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
This has been so phenominally helpful. Thanks so much.


I mis-typed the 8' distance on the 120" screen. That's the closest distance to the front of my couch, which will be more like 9'. The PJ will be ceiling mounted on an existing black pole that was installed by the previous home owner. I haven't measured yet (3 weeks until the moving trucks come), but my best guess from memory is about 12 - 14' from the screen. Whew!


I'm confused between the SF 2.5 5.0 - isn't it either SF 2.5 or SF 5.0 depending on the amount of Colorant? Teach on brotha, I'm sure i'm missing something here.


To that extent, how can I calculate the exact SF mixture that will be the perfect solution to create the best possible outcome for deep blacks, color, "Pop-n-Sizzle", etc. in my specific environment? Aside from using a light meter (I wonder if a my Canon 60D DLSR would be a tool for measurement... Lol), I could post some pics (from said camera) and the forum can reply with a 'best guess' on the environment. Curious what your expertise would say again on how to calculate the right Ounces of Colorant to achieve the desired POP results. Maybe I calculate based on the brightest expected situation and then know that as the ambient light falls off towards nighttime, we can maintain performance.
 

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SF 2.5 is a "Version" designation That is why when you see me refer to the amount of Colorant to be added on ounces, I always "Highlight" the Colorant figures


ie: SF v2.5. 5.0 = 5 oz of Colorant added to the prescribed SF v2.5 mix.


You just go ahead and provide me / us with every bit of info you can about the room, the "EXACT" throw distance you actually are working with, and you can be sure what is suggested to you will be more accurate than a "best guess". Guessing only happens when there is a dearth og information, and that is why we try our best to not make a recommendation until we have enough facts to do so with impunity.
 

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Discussion Starter #10

Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan  /t/1419985/black-diamond-1-4-vs-diy#post_22215833


SF 2.5 is a "Version" designation "OH!" Lol, ok. That is why when you see me refer to the amount of Colorant to be added on ounces, I always "Highlight" the Colorant figures

ie: SF v2.5. 5.0 = 5 oz of Colorant added to the prescribed SF v2.5 mix.

You just go ahead and provide me / us with every bit of info you can about the room, the "EXACT" throw distance you actually are working with, and you can be sure what is suggested to you will be more accurate than a "best guess". Guessing only happens when there is a dearth og information, and that is why we try our best to not make a recommendation until we have enough facts to do so with impunity.

Sweet. Will do tonight, thanks again.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooleyone  /t/1419985/black-diamond-1-4-vs-diy#post_22215979


Sweet. Will do tonight, thanks again.

Tonight has faded into today.
Looking forward to your information, and potentially saving you $3K
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Ok, posting pics here of the room. Total room Size = 17' wide x 30' long. There are 3 Windows along the outside wall and a 4th window that is on the opposite end of the room from the screen. The alcove that contains the black foam sound material is 7.5' high and 2.5' deep. The small white dots on the black foam things represent a screen that is 113" diagnal. The PJ to screen length is 12' (that's from the front of anticipated lens to about 2" in front of the black foam stuff.

Room1.JPG 83k .JPG file
Room2.JPG 83k .JPG file
Room3.JPG 100k .JPG file
 

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Discussion Starter #13
So, MM.... have I provided the requisite info to shamelssly ask for your input on the right SilverFire screen recipe?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooleyone  /t/1419985/black-diamond-1-4-vs-diy#post_22226604


So, MM.... have I provided the requisite info to shamelssly ask for your input on the right SilverFire screen recipe?

Indeed. Why, you have me blushing for you.



So, with my assuming that the windows on the right will have at least some degree of shading drawn, yet with the expectation that there will still be considerable light leakage, with the 5010 set at a 12' throw, we/you have 27 fls to work with. (BTW, the 6010 delivers just under 2x that amount of Fls under the same circumstances...) To that extent, I would suggest SF 2.5 5.0 Obviously even with a good deal of "closure" on the windows, the room itself will collect and distribute a pretty good amount of any ambient light, be it sunlight leaking from Window Shades, or Lamps lit at evening time.


The recommendation I've given will easily perform up to and beyond a 1.4 BD. If you simply use a bit of discretion as far as making sure that you minimize sunlight coming from the left side of the most forward placed Window, by securing the leading edge of whatever curtain / shade you use to the wall or window jam, the incandescent lighting should present little issue if properly placed or set up.


One of the hallmarks of having a well balanced SF / PJ set-up is the ability to watch content under lighting conditions that would make doing so under other circumstances a very poor experience. To that effect I'm going to say that if you construct a SF 2.5 5.0 screen (....do you want a "Zero Edge" version? You can do that, ya know....) that you will find no regrets whatsoever, especially in the "cash saved + performance gained" area.


I personally want you to have everything and more than you hope for, as this sort of application is exactly what judicious planning and choices of both Screen & PJ is all about. That is to say...the end results being fabulous.
 

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Done! Now I just need a recipe list for the SilverFire v2.5 5.0, instructions to mix and apply, and hwo to build the frame and screen combo.
I'm a big DIY kinda guy, workshop in the garage, drill press, table saw, etc. And I love the smell of fresh cut pine in the morning.


BTW - VERY excited ot get this project-a-rollin'. I'll take a bunch of photos along the way to document the process and post to share with the forum on lessons learned, goals achieved and smiles created.
 

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Mississipi man am about to try this project. Am trying to get the black diamond zero edge look. Am Trying to get it ready by superbowl sunday. The price of the epson 5010 has reduced due to the availability of the 5020 so thats the projector am going to get. I'm aiming to a have 100" screen.At that size i think i a throw distance of 10' will work. I Have a sliding door to the left of where the screen will be but I have blinds so there will be no direct sunlight from that, however I'll probably have lights on in the room so I'll have a fair amount of ambient light . I"ll appreciate any links in this forum on similar projectors. I'm much of a DIY guy but at least I'll try anything once lol. I have no experience spraying so I'll appreciate a guide and tips too. I'm going to try and get everything together next weekend . Also do you know any websites that ship sintra boards apart from the one that listed in this thread as I noticed they dont ship single sheets. Looking forward to lots and lots of information so I can soak it up like a sponge. I cant seem to find a guide to putting the sf2.5 5 together either so any links will be appreciated
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kojotandoh  /t/1419985/black-diamond-1-4-vs-diy#post_22851801


Mississipi man am about to try this project. Am trying to get the black diamond zero edge look. Am Trying to get it ready by superbowl sunday. The price of the epson 5010 has reduced due to the availability of the 5020 so thats the projector am going to get. I'm aiming to a have 100" screen.At that size i think i a throw distance of 10' will work.

10' Throw will work....barely. It leave you only 3" of available focal throw distance on the "wide open" end of Zoom Better to move the face of the Lens to 10' 3"

Quote:
I'm much of a DIY guy but at least I'll try anything once lol. I have no experience spraying so I'll appreciate a guide and tips too. I'm going to try and get everything together next weekend . Also do you know any websites that ship sintra boards apart from the one that listed in this thread as I noticed they dont ship single sheets. Looking forward to lots and lots of information so I can soak it up like a sponge. I cant seem to find a guide to putting the sf2.5 5 together either so any links will be appreciated

What City do you live in, are closest to?


As for everything else, just post your questions and receive the needed info...it will be easier for you that way.
 

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I live in cincinnati oh. I see why you are known as a legend on this forum. This is my first projector so I assumed the closer the projector is to the screen the brighter the image will be thats why I was aiming to hanging the projector as close as the throw distance will allow. I looking to hang the sintra board from the ceiling to give a floating look.
 
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