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Well, I am extremely frustrated, to say the least. As most of you know, I have made very slow progress on my dedicated home theater due to a variety of reasons:

Chrispy's Home Theater In Progress


Back in March 2000, I purchased a used Barco 808s from T*W for $7000, including a Quadscan and screen. (I didn't want the Quadscan, but they refused to sell just the projector.) The unit was described as a unit in premium condition, no burn-in, low hours on the tubes. I purchased the projector, and also paid an additional $350 to have it ISF-calibrated to a 1.3 gain screeen. It arrived and stayed in my garage while I recovered from knee surgery.


When the projector arrived, I took it out of the case and powered it on to ensure that all three guns worked and threw the test grid on the wall, then crated it back up.


The projector was kept in the basement until January 2002, at which time I installed it on the ceiling. However, I had no suitable computer to drive a picture, so I didn't do anything beyond the built-in Barco test grids.


A couple months ago, I got a Dell laptop with DVD drive, and decided to start using that until my HTPC is ready (A-Tech Fabrication case, Radeon card, Holo3DGraph card, all ordered and on their way). I began playing movies on the Barco, and also began noticing some problems:
  • The top 10% of the image is jittering horizontally. The unit has been mechanically aligned, and the convergence is not being pushed very hard, although the vertical size is at 0.
  • In any scenes with gray or blue, a yellowish discoloration in the center of the screen was very noticeable.


I downloaded the Nokia Monitor Test program to display solid color fields to try to get a better handle on what the second problem was. Imagine my surprise when I saw this:

http://home.epix.net/~chris73/burned...s_original.jpg


Although it may appear faint to the digital camera, it is much more obvious to the human eye. By adjusting the contrast, I was able to bring out the text of the burn-in:

http://home.epix.net/~chris73/burned...s_contrast.jpg


Interestingly, if I also flip this text vertically in my graphics editing program, it now becomes readable:

http://home.epix.net/~chris73/burned...st_flipped.jpg


So, I now know the following three facts:
  • The text is only readable when vertically flipped, meaning the burn occurred in a rear projection installation, rather than my front projection installation.
  • The burn pattern is text ("BUILDING STRENGTH") which I have never even seen before, until now.
  • I have only displayed a grand total of maybe ten movies on this projector so far, along with about 30 minutes of the setup and convergence grid.


This seemed to directly imply that the blue tube was burned in its previous life, before I received the unit. I emailed Phil at T*W and listed the facts above, and asked if he could do anything to help me out despite the time that has passed. He responded back, and basically said that I was out of my mind to expect him to do anything about it at this point in time.


I now have a very expensive projector bolted to my ceiling, which throws a jittering picture with a big yellow BUILDING STRENGTH splotch in the middle. You can't imagine how frustrated I am. My question to my fellow forum members is, could the unit have been unburned when T*W sold it to me, and the handful of movies I've watched wore the tube enough to bring out this hidden burn? Have I unfairly blamed this on T*W? I kept my brightness low when I set up the projector, and I wouldn't think that about 20 hours of usage would be enough to significantly change the condition of the blue tube.


I recall reading that rebuilt tubes are not available for the BG 808s projectors, and a new tube is $2200 from Phil. At this point I'm so frustrated and angry, I want to bring the thing down with a sledgehammer and put a bulb projector up there. Or, is this a mess that Curt Palmer can help me out of?


Please, any suggestions welcome. The room's still not done, and suddenly I find myself VERY unmotivated to finish.


- Chris
 

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They charged you for a BG808 with perfect tubes, that's what you should get. A lot of time has passed (bad), but there isn't much question as to how you've used it and that burn is obviously from the previous owner.


For them to sell it to you for that much, including having done an "ISF" calibration, and *still* not notice it is troubling. Ask Phil how much he would have sold it to you if the unit said "totally burned and unuseable blue tube" in the ad.
 

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Sue the buggers, they ripped you and did it thinking you'd never notice because it was on the blue tube and the human eye is less sensitive to blue. At the very least, they sold you something that was different than what it was supposed to be. They should have recorded the hours and you can recite the hours now on the chassis to prove the use you have done is not anywhere near enough to cause the damage to the tube you show. Just my opinion, but you paid a very high premium for a machine that should reflect that. I'm sure the more reputable commercial sellers would stand behind their product better than that.
 

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yikes!


its a problem both ways; you really cant expect anyone to warranty something almost 3 years old, but, there is no way in hell that a real ISF tech would of missed that one!


who was the tech? (if there was one!)


what multi level marketing company uses the motto "building on strength"?


any chance somebody snook the projector out in the last 2 years and used it behind your back for a pyramid scheme? (just kidding)





gn2:


the blue tube is usually the 1st to go on any crt projector, and is the 1st thing you check when buying a used one. you could indeed damage a tube that badly in just 2 hours of abuse, thus the hour counter will be of no use in debating this matter.



jesse:


"Ask Phil how much he would have sold it to you if the unit said "totally burned and unuseable blue tube" in the ad."


too funny!
 

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Chris,


I may have a pretty easy solution for you. I have an 808S parts machine that has very slight wear on the B CRT that doesn't have any burn that I can sell you as a replacement for your burned B CRT. So long as you stay within the 4:3 wear pattern, you won't see it. Replacing the Barco CRT's is pretty easy and can be done while the unit is still handing.

If you are inerested, cintact me at [email protected]


Terry
 

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This may be a moot point that has been debated to death, but is it possible to retrofit a non-s tube in that application? There would be some board swapping and maybe a HV mod, but is that possible?


-Garrick
 

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For some reason I thought I had heard where someone put MEC tubes in a BG808s? The BD808s units I've seen all came with MEC tubes. You'd probably have to change out all three and swap out all the mounting hardware that's unique to the tube brand.



Chris,


It probably won't help, but surely Phil (or you) has a record of the hourmeter at delivery and if you've only put about 20 hours on it since taking delivery then you might have a better case to argue. If you've put 100's of hours it would probably be a waste to argue.


Have you taken the lense off the blue tube? Take it off and you should be able to see the burned logo clearly. I think its an 8mm socket. Not that it will do any good, take a picture (with the projector off) and post it. I'm curious how much visible burn is cooresponding to your yellowish tint you're seeing in some scenes. You may want to check the other two tubes also.


The last time I bought a Barco prepared (with the correct HV lead on it) blue Sony tube for a BG808s from my local rep in Dallas was 2 years ago and it was $1250 plus shipping and tax so maybe $1400ish.


Mark
 

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Chris


That sucks, to bad you had to wait so long to find out. I would think that the guy that sold it to you should have no problem working something out with you.


Deron
 

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I know they are focusing on digital these days, but he may be able to help.

Robert van der Veer
 

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Originally posted by chrispy
My question to my fellow forum members is, could the unit have been unburned when T*W sold it to me, and the handful of movies I've watched wore the tube enough to bring out this hidden burn?


No. Quite the opposite actually. The more you use the projector to display non-static images, the less you'll most likely notice the burn as you'll also wear in the rest of the phosphor.

Have I unfairly blamed this on T*W?


I don't think so. If they sold you something that was supposed to have 'minty' tubes, that was definitely is not the case. The problem here is the timeframe in which you've discovered the problem. So if they provide a 60 or 90 day (or even 1 year) warranty, that has now expired. Once expired, it doesn't really matter WHEN the problem occured I think. You can't claim something after the fact. Now it all comes down to how well they're able to 'bend the rules'. There's no doubt in my mind that the burn was there before you bought the unit. There's nothing wrong with the existance of burn, but the unit should have been marketed and sold accordingly.


Had you used the projector as soon as you received it, you would probably have sent a photo to Phil on the first day you used it and he would have had someone replace the blue tube for you since it was indicated that it was unblemished.


Whne you mention that the unit was ISF'ed - was this done at your house for your screen or was it done at the vendor? (ISF'ing for grey scale at the vendor is not even really that possible because they don't know what screen you're using/etc/etc/etc - but I digress).


The fact that someone ISF'ed the unit and DID NOT discover this burn really indicated that either (a) the unit was never ISF'ed in the first place, or (b) the ISF'er is completely incompetent, or possibly (c) the unit was ISF'ed for grey scale calibration and the ISF'er did see the burn but did his best anyway and never mentioned it.


Either way, it's shady in my books...


Question:


Do you see the burn through the blue lense with a strong flashlight?


Kal
 

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My $.02:


1) IMHO it is unreasonable to expect *** to replace the tube for free. You're talking 2 1/2 years from the date of purchase....While hindsight is 20/20, I ALWAYS tell people to fire up a projector within the first 48 hours to make sure the projector (a) was not damaged in shipping (b) is in the condition you expect it to be in.


Unfortunately, anyone that has dealt with retail sales at all has had numerous bad experiences with some kind of scam, so even the legit claims get dumped in with the bad ones.


2) Having said the above, I would hope that the seller would help you out in some respect. Selling you the tube at cost would be one way to get you help you out. Problem is, these particular Sony tubes are not available from Sony, and the cost from Barco is about $1800.00. If they are a dealer, maybe they can get a better price.


3) Terry's offer sounds like the best way to go frankly. Drop in a good used tube with minimal wear, and you're off to the races. Note that ANY decent 808s tube of ANY color is really hard to get...


4) Note the BG 808s are all Sony tubes, not the MEC's. you cannot retrofit the MEc tubes into ones with Sony tubes.


Sorry!


Curt
 

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Chris I don't think the time lapse is an issue at all. I have looked at your web site and you clearly did not purchase the projector for immediate use anyway.


The fact that you did notice it right away once you started using it and you brought it to his attention was the right thing to do.



Granted, maybe you should have checked it out, but I don't think you are at fault for not doing so. There are people out there with projectors that would not even know where to look for a CRT burn.



One thing I always read and what I gather from looking at prices on the net is that the price or value of a used projector strongly depends upon tube condition. Those tubes are worth their weight in gold, and to anyone in the CRT business they are as much a commodity as gold and diamonds.


As for what to do is a tough call. If it was me and the seller would not offer some recourse I would take it to a higher level. Not only is there too much money involved it is also the chance that it may have been misrepresented.


Gerald
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by GeraldK
One thing I always read and what I gather from looking at prices on the net is that the price or value of a used projector strongly depends upon tube condition. Those tubes are worth their weight in gold, and to anyone in the CRT business they are as much a commodity as gold and diamonds.
You're overstating the issue. The problem is that this has often been over emphasized to an almost absurd degree. I agree that a projector with light and normal CRT wear (as opposed to burn as is the case here) will not bring as high a price as a machine with brand new tubes in it. But I have seen it argued here on this board that such machines are virtually worthless, and nothing could be further from the truth.


The other problem is that newcommers often read this sort of nonsense and run away from a great deal on a used projector with very light CRT wear at an excellent price, in favor of paying a stiff premium (largely out of fear) for a freshly retubed projector. Seldom to they do the math and consider whether or not an extra 1000 hours or so is worth upwards of a thousand or two in price premium (the answer to that question largely depending on the projector). And tubes that are wear free at the time of purchase does not necessarily translate into tubes that are wear free six months from now.


--Jerome
 

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umm, I guess I should have turned off the "BUILDING STRENGTH" screen saver I turned on at night when I was sleeping in your TR 3 weeks ago chrispy :) . I was just trying to brain wash my self to be a EE :D





I can ensure you, that Unit sat in the box for a long time. I gave Chris hell everytime I went up there "You get that TR done yet?!"


:p


John
 
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