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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I posted here about getting a black screen with 4K. Turns out the $350 of HDMI cables I bought from Blue Jeans can't pass 4K. :( This is my fault for not doing sufficient research, however I do feel mislead by BJC's purchase page. I'm constantly reading on AVS that BJC is a good company with great quality cables. I didn't realize that alternatives to copper HDMI even existed and I mistakenly thought I had to buy good quality cables and hope for the best (which used to be true). The problem I have is that the BJC website gives the impression that their cables will work for runs longer than the certified lengths. This may be true for 1080p, but it is not true for 4K! Any runs over 25 feet will definitely not work for 4K, yet the only thing the BJC HDMI page says about 4K is "Supports all HDMI protocols and standards, such as 3D, 4Kx2K, 1080p, etc." They have a 3800 word article on a different page that eventually provides the information, but IMHO it is far from clear that their HDMI cables won't work for 4K at > 25 feet.

I contacted BJC and explained why I think their website is misleading. It has now been more than 3 weeks, but they have not improved their website text. Given this, IMO BJC is deliberately deceiving at worst and negligent at best. Also, I am unimpressed by BJC's customer service and tone. The following is our correspondence:
Quantity Description Unit Price Extended Price
1 HDMI Cable, BJC Series-1 23 1/2 AWG Belden Bonded-Pair, 40 foot, Black 132.75 132.75
1 HDMI Cable, BJC Series-1 23 1/2 AWG Belden Bonded-Pair, 30 foot, Black~3.27~986~36 102.25 102.25
1 HDMI Cable, BJC Series-1 23 1/2 AWG Belden Bonded-Pair, 25 foot, Black~2.74~839~32 87.00 87.00
2 HDMI Right-Angle Adapter, version A~0.08~70~1 8.00 16.00
1 HDMI Female/Displayport Male Adapter cable, 6 inches~0.1~90~4 12.00 12.00
2 BJC LC-1 Subwoofer Cable, 1 1/2 foot, Black~0.18~70~1 15.00 30.00
1 BJC LC-1 Subwoofer Cable, 1 foot, Black~0.15~59~1 14.25 14.25
1 BJC LC-1 Subwoofer Cable, 2 foot, Black~0.2~82~2 15.75 15.75
1 Blue Jeans Cable Bonded Pair Cat 6a Ethernet Cable, 25 foot, Black~1.02~408~13 36.00 36.00
2 Belden 1700A Bonded Pair Cat 5e Ethernet Cable, 1 1/2 foot, Black~0.06~22~1 6.50 13.00
2 Belden 1700A Bonded Pair Cat 5e Ethernet Cable, 3 foot, Black~0.09~36~1 7.00 14.00
1 Belden 5000UE Speaker Cable, 260 foot, unterminated~15.73~1560~65 158.60 158.60
1 Belden 1700A Bonded Pair Cat 5e Ethernet Cable, 6 foot, Black~0.16~63~2 8.50 8.50
Shipping 0.00
Sales Tax 61.45
Total 701.55

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Hi BJC,

In my order below, I purchased a 40ft Series-1 HDMI cable on a visit to Seattle and brought it home to Croatia in my luggage, which meant I could not test it. During the next 6 months I was very busy with construction on my home. I had actually forgotten there was any risk the cable won't work and I foolishly ran the cable in the floor, walls, and ceiling without testing it. It is in conduit, but as you know, it is a very thick cable and difficult to pull.

Now I have everything setup and I'm trying to pass 4K from a Sony UBP-X800 Blu-ray player to a JVC RS620 projector via the 40ft cable, but the projector claims "no input". I have tried [email protected] and [email protected], with and without a Denon 3300W AVR. If I connect the X800 to the projector with a 6 foot cheapo HDMI cable, 4K works.

Is there anything I can do? Do I really need to pull the Series-1 HDMI cable out of the floor, walls, and ceiling and replace it? I'm honestly surprised that HDMI is such a terrible standard that high quality copper cables cannot work for a 40ft run. The guys on AVS forum have suggested an optical cable for ~$180. That puts the cost of my HDMI run at $133 for the BJC cable that doesn't work + $180 optical cable = $313 = absolutely brutal.

Your website states that the cable is certified for "category 2" (which I assume includes 4K) only up to 25ft, however the text also gives the impression that the cables will work beyond the certified lengths. I accepted this to be true because of your good reputation on AVS forum and because I found other customers of yours reporting 4K working at 40ft. I needed a 40ft HDMI cable and it was my understanding that you are selling the highest quality HDMI cable possible. My naive conclusion was that I had no other option except to take a chance on the length of the run. Had I known 4K would not work or that an optical cable was a surefire solution, I would not have purchased and installed the Series-1 cable. While ultimately it was my own lack of HDMI expertise and inability to test the cable that got me in this situation, I do feel somewhat mislead by the text on your website, specifically:

"...performs better over distance than anything else we have seen--and this is borne out by its independent HDMI certifications. It is certified to the longest distances of any HDMI cable we know of--45 feet for Category 1 ("Standard" speed), 25 feet for Category 2 ("High speed". In actual usage, it ordinarily will work at distances far exceeding these--we have run 1080p video through a 125 foot Series-1 HDMI cable without any information loss, but results will vary depending on the capabilities of the sending and receiving circuits of the devices in use."

Cheers,
-Nate

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First of all, you cannot fairly compare a 40 foot cable with a 6 foot cable. Length is a huge factor in HDMI cabling. We also state at the end of the statement on our website "but results will vary depending on the capabilities of the sending and receiving circuits of the devices in use."

While some people report full function at 4K at 40 feet, this is VERY much based on the gear involved (not just the cable). We make no claims or guarantees of 4K function at those lengths.

Category 1 and 2 were HDMI v1.3 certifications, and are not the same as Premium Certification as called out in HDMI 2.0. This information has been on our site since early 2016.

The following excerpts are from the article on this page:
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/premium-hdmi-cable.htm

Blue Jeans Cable
*@bluejeanscable.com

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Hi BJC,

​You seem defensive and even more upset than I am, yet I'm the one who wasted $133​ and now has to pull new cables​.​​ I'm not attacking you. I'm a customer who had a bad experience with your business and I'm communicating to you why I think that happened.​ Do whatever you like with the information that I'm taking the extra time to provide to you.

On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 3:28 AM, Blue Jeans Cable <[email protected]> wrote:

> First of all, you cannot fairly compare a 40 foot cable with a 6 foot cable. Length is a huge factor in HDMI cabling.

​I'm not comparing those cables. I performed the test with the 6 foot cable to narrow down that the problem is with the BJC​ cable and that everything else is working correctly.

> We also state at the end of the statement on our website "but results will vary depending on the capabilities of the sending and receiving circuits of the devices in use."

Yes, ​I included that text in the part of your web page I quoted to you​. Still, I find your web page misleading: immediately after listing the certifications you say the cables will ordinarily work at distances far exceeding the certifications. You are encouraging customers to purchase your product for use outside the certifications. This leads to unhappy customers, like myself. I'm also not the only one:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-blu-ray-players/2762609-official-sony-ubp-x800-owners-thread-no-price-talk-150.html#post54564886

Sure, after listing the specs, then saying the cables will ordinarily work anyway, you then say it depends on the sending and receiving circuits. I don't find this makes things any clearer. You may feel it's a good enough disclaimer, but you have unhappy customers so I would say it really isn't terribly good.

> While some people report full function at 4K at 40 feet, this is VERY much based on the gear involved (not just the cable). We make no claims or guarantees of 4K function at those lengths.

That is true. The only thing you say about 4K is that it is a supported protocol/standard.

> Category 1 and 2 were HDMI v1.3 certifications, and are not the same as Premium Certification as called out in HDMI 2.0. This information has been on our site since early 2016.

​I wouldn't consider these layman's terms and would personally find it useful to know (concisely) what the certifications mean. Eg, I come to your page to buy cables to hook up my devices. I probably know if I want 1080p or 4K. I probably don't know what category 1, 2, or premium are.

> The following excerpts are from the article on this page:
> http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/premium-hdmi-cable.htm

​It's a good article.​ It's ~3800 words but gets to the part that concerns me eventually, and what it says about that is: 1) Series-1 is good for 4K to 20-25 feet, and 2) it "may function just fine for somewhat longer distances in practice" where the longer distance is quantified as > 25ft and < 100ft. I still have no idea of how likely that "maybe" range is. Given my experience, I would guess it's pretty damned unlikely for 4K to work at all > 25ft.

-​Nate​

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Nate,

When I mentioned that comparing a 6 and 40 foot cabl;e was not a fair comparison, what I'm saying is that because a 6 foot cable worked does not mean that the 40 foot cable is faulty. I did not feel as if you were "attacking" us.

I'm sorry that your system is not functioning, but all we can do is offer as much information as we can to educate the buyer prior to making a purchase, as well as making our contact information easily available in case questions still remain.

Blue Jeans Cable
*@bluejeanscable.com

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I just bought 12m, 10m, and 6m RUIPRO optical HDMI cables for $480 to replace my $350 of BJC cables. IMHO your site should be crystal clear that HDMI cables > 25 feet won't work or are extremely unlikely to work with 4K (both my 30 and 40 foot BJC cables won't pass 4K, I didn't bother trying the 25 foot). I agree that educating the buyer is good and if your site was clear about what does not work with 4K, my disaster would have been avoided. It currently is NOT clear. The information is indeed on your site, embedded in a 3800 word article linked from your purchase page, but I don't feel this is sufficient and clearly it was not since I made a purchasing mistake.

If you won't provide a partial refund, please at least make 4K compatibility clear directly on your purchase page so others can avoid the pain and expense that I have suffered.
It has been more than 3 weeks since this last message, but BJC has opted not to make their purchase page more clear. I hope this thread helps others to avoid my $350 mistake!

TLDR; if you need 4K, don't buy copper HDMI cables (from BJC or anywhere else) for runs >= 25 feet. Instead, buy optical HDMI cables.
 

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People don't know what they don't know. It is absolutely the company’s responsibility to ensure they are actually solving the problem their customer is having.

Customers are stupid, everybody knows this. I sell a product that is very niche and is often (10% or so) mistaken for something else when purchased, despite multiple very clear warnings and descriptions. I still take time to individually message each customer to ensure they understand what they are purchasing. I'd rather do an immediate refund or upsell them to the correct product than to ship them the 'wrong' one and have to deal with a return and upset customers. Since I started messaging customers, guess how many returns I have processed? Zero.

HDCP 2.2 UHD 4K is insanely finicky, the only people that know this are the cable makers and upset customers who unknowingly bought the wrong cable (and a few overachievers on AVSForum). In 2017, it is absolutely the cable makers’ responsibility to make it crystal clear the cable being purchased will not work for the reason it's probably being purchased.

If BJC and other HDMI cable makers truly care, then their resolution to this issue is simple:

1) Make it very clear in a separate category which cables are tested for HDCP 2.2 UHD 60Hz content.
2) Indicate in your product description cables not tested for HDCP 2.2 UHD 60Hz content.
3) Indicate in your product cart the cables not tested for HDCP 2.2 UHD 60Hz content.
4) Indicate in your email invoice in big bold letters cables not tested for HDCP 2.2 UHD 60Hz content.
5) Bonus points if you incorporate a pop up or send a follow up message the user has to click to acknowledge.

This thread is what happens when you blame the customer for not knowing what you do.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
1) Make it very clear in a separate category which cables are tested for HDCP 2.2 UHD 60Hz content.
2) Indicate in your product description cables not tested for HDCP 2.2 UHD 60Hz content.
3) Indicate in your product cart the cables not tested for HDCP 2.2 UHD 60Hz content.
4) Indicate in your email invoice in big bold letters cables not tested for HDCP 2.2 UHD 60Hz content.
5) Bonus points if you incorporate a pop up or send a follow up message the user has to click to acknowledge.
Such extreme measures wouldn't have been necessary for me. They just need a simple sentence saying, "no copper HDMI cable > 25 feet in length can carry 4K signals". They don't sell an alternative soltuion (optical HDMI cables) so I don't expect them to mention one, just stating their product's limitations would be sufficient.

Beyond that, it would be nice to clarify the text which says, "[snip] 25 feet for Category 2 (High speed. In actual usage, it ordinarily will work at distances far exceeding these [snip]". I doubt many customers know what Category 2 is. If you are going to suggest using your product outside the specifications, that is a very good time to be clear about your suggestion. Without looking it up, I assumed Category 2 was 4K, partly because 4K isn't mentioned anywhere else on the page.
 

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Nate,

Sorry to hear about your cabling issues with BJC. I've used their cables for years and, in fact, purchased the 15 foot FE cable for my 4K setup. It works like a charm because I took the time to read through all of their literature to make sure it would meet my needs. Their site specifically states:

"It remains the case that the intent of the spec is that any legitimate "high speed" HDMI cable under 1.3/1.4 should handle 2.0 signals; but only a Premium HDMI Cable has actually been tested at the full 18.0 Gbps bandwidth and proven to actually work; and only a Premium HDMI Cable bears the anti-counterfeiting sticker to ensure that the manufacturer of the cable really does hold a certificate for that particular product."

To date, the maximum BJC cable length to wear that Premium label is 15 feet. I've been down the same road as you when it comes to purchasing equipment. I want to make sure that my hard earned money is going to purchase only those products that perform as I need them to perform. Unfortunately, unlike the days of 1080p when you could extend performance over longer cable runs, the 4K specs have taken any wriggle room out of the equation. You have to buy Premium HDMI cable to insure 4K performance. Anything else is guesswork (or just hoping for the best).

Just my 2 cents worth. Hope you get that setup to work for you!

ez
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Their site specifically states:
It does, though it states that in a 3800 word article linked from the purchase page and the information is embedded in pages and pages of HDMI history. Then the purchase page says, "All lengths up to 15 feet are now Premium HDMI Cable certified". As a customer, I have to read a long article filled with information irrelevant to my purchase, figure out that 4K compatible cables are called "Premium", then find that sentence on the purchase page so I know what to buy. I don't consider that clear.

How much simpler would it be to just provide the information necessary to make a purchase directly on the purchase page? Eg: You want 1080p? These cables are certified to length X but likely work at longer lengths. You want 4K? These cables will work up to a maximum of 15 feet. THAT would be clear.

BJC says, "all we can do is offer as much information as we can to educate the buyer prior to making a purchase" but IMHO this is not the case and it cost me $350.
 

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I started with a 3D projector and a 4K (but unfortunately not HDR compatable) Sony tv. I now have an Oppo 203 and a 4k VLPL-VW365 Sony 4K projector and a Yamaha receiver with two hdmi outputs.
Before I bought my Yamaha 3050 receiver with two outputs, I needed to connect my disk player to my receiver and then the receiver output to a cable (a monoprice 4 meter cable "high speed" ) that I could plug into either a short run cable to the Sony tv or to a second HDMI cable to my non 4K projector. I could never get a switch that effectively worked. for HDMI. I used a little HDMI union coupler at that junction to select TV or Projector to plug into the Yamaha Monoprice output cable. I bought a new Audioquest Pearl cable for direct connection of the receiver and tv when I was trying switches unsuccessfully and changed the 25 foot run throught he attic to the Blue Jeans "BJC Series 1 Belden bonded cable since it seemed to be certified to run 4k at that length. I tried the Monoprice to BJC hdmi with the coupler on the living room floor and it seemed fine so I never eliminated the coupler or the 4 meter Monoprice cable. So my Sony 4Kprojector runs just fine with a 25 ft Blue Jeans cable and a coupler to another 4 meter Monoprice high speed cable. I could have run the 25 ft Blue Jeans directly to the Yamaha if I needed to do it but would have had to endure crawling around on the attic floor in the fiberglass insulation in some tight places to reroute it and have it reach the receiver from a different drop from the attic. If it works don't fix it but try it to see if it works before committing to a change. I never heard of an optical substitute or I might have tried it. I hope they have more reliable plugs and sockets than normal HDMI but I would think they need a conversion coupler to standard HDMI on each end anyway so who knows.
 

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Agreed. HDMI and all of its versions are a complete clusterf--k when it comes to consumer purchasing. Very confusing with all of the different versions and their individual specs. A simple listing as you have displayed would be perfect.

I have always considered HDMI cables to be more important than the components to which they are connected because if they don't work, nothing will work. The old saying "consumer beware" applies here and I think BJC's approach is that the consumer should have every piece of information as possible about HDMI. I applaud them for that but it is also a very confusing mish-mash for the average consumer. Hopefully, that will change on their site and they will offer both a simplified as well as a comprehensive display of information.

ez
 

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If one has been following this forum you'd know by now that cable mfrs, even reputable ones like BJC, Monoprice, MediaBridge, etc make all kinds of carefully worded claims. Premium High Speed HDMI cables are the only ones with that name that have been tested by an ATC (Authorized Testing Center) following the certification protocols designed by HDMI.org, and they come with a QR code for authenticity. However, the 25' max length is the same as it was for HDMI 1.4b. 4k can be successfully run at distances a bit longer than 25' but it depends on how the cable is installed (bend radius) and the equipment it is connected to (including the version of the HDMI chipsets used). This is why the recommendation to run conduit if at all possible is pushed because no matter what cable you install today, you will be swapping it out at a future date as video standards progress. For any run over 25', installing fiber (either Celerity or Ruipro) in conduit is highly recommended. This will only get worse once fully compliant HDMI 2.1 is in consumer devices and readily available. Plan now with conduit. You could also install a solid core CAT-6 (non-CCS and not CAT-6 ethernet patch cable) for future use because as soon as the new HDMI chipsets are available in active termination, like HDBT, you should be good to go.
 

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I've had a much different experience with BJC. I've had a 4K HDR projector (and sources) for quite some time, and using a 10 METER length Blue Jeans HDMI cable and have had ZERO issues ..... until now. I've used an Oppo and Apple TV

And while I still don't know if it is the cable, my Dune will not work (so far) in any of the 4K modes. I will be doing some testing later this week on trying to narrow down the issue but if it turns out to be the cable, I will consider HDMI over Ethernet, since I am not aware of anyone who makes a cable and claims it will work at 10 meters. We shall see.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
@audioguy My issue with BJC is they purposefully provide lots of information without actually making it clear that their cables will not work for 4K at long distances. With HDMI outputs/inputs I felt it was reasonable to assume an HDMI cable was what I needed. BJC sells expensive HDMI cables and has a good reputation here, so I thought surely they would work. Not seeing any warnings on BJC's site, I purchased cables that don't work for my needs.

BJC should explain which cables will not pass 4K (or are extremely unlikely to, eg >15 ft). Not making that clear is purposefully negligent and misleading. That is nasty, especially when BJC cables are not cheap. Most likely the reason BJC doesn't make it clear is that they don't sell an alternative to copper HDMI cables. They would rather sell customers cables they can't use, then blame the customer for buying the wrong cables. While they are not wrong, the customer should do proper research, their behavior is sleazy and their good reputation is undeserved.

I ended up switching to optical, active HDMI cables. I'm still very unhappy with the hundreds of dollars wasted at BJC and the trouble I had running new cables through my walls. It all could have been easily avoided by a proper explanation about which of their cables will and will not work with 4K.
 

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@audioguy My issue with BJC is they purposefully provide lots of information without actually making it clear that their cables will not work for 4K at long distances. With HDMI outputs/inputs I felt it was reasonable to assume an HDMI cable was what I needed. BJC sells expensive HDMI cables and has a good reputation here, so I thought surely they would work. Not seeing any warnings on BJC's site, I purchased cables that don't work for my needs.

BJC should explain which cables will not pass 4K (or are extremely unlikely to, eg >15 ft). Not making that clear is purposefully negligent and misleading. That is nasty, especially when BJC cables are not cheap. Most likely the reason BJC doesn't make it clear is that they don't sell an alternative to copper HDMI cables. They would rather sell customers cables they can't use, then blame the customer for buying the wrong cables. While they are not wrong, the customer should do proper research, their behavior is sleazy and their good reputation is undeserved.

I ended up switching to optical, active HDMI cables. I'm still very unhappy with the hundreds of dollars wasted at BJC and the trouble I had running new cables through my walls. It all could have been easily avoided by a proper explanation about which of their cables will and will not work with 4K.
As I pointed out in post #8 , cable mfrs will make all kinds of great sounding claims but it does take a lot of extra work on the consumer in researching to find out what will actually work for them. Monoprice, BJC, MediaBridge (for copper-based cables) all make excellent cables and Ruipro appears to be the most consistent out of the hybrid fiber group. The biggest issue with HDMI cables is that some will work in a given setup and the same cable will not work in a different setup. There are a lot of other factors in play besides just the data pipe (cable). Understanding the distance limitations, chipset versions, etc helps when one starts to research which cables may or may not work. There are no 100% guarantees when it comes to purchasing HDMI cables. I've used Monoprice, BJC, and MediaBridge cables in the past and would not have any problems using them again.

If your cable run is around 25' 0r 30', then a hybrid fiber cable should work just fine. Active cables are nice but are really unnecessary if you don't have an exceptionally long run. The downside of an active cable is that like any other electronic device, the chipsets in the source end can fail overtime, or the chipset version isn't compatible with future upgrades to the HDMI hardware protocols, in which case the cable will need to be replaced. That's why we strongly suggest you install your cables in a 1.5" - 2.0" conduit if your cable run is installed in-wall. That is the ONLY way to future proof cabling.
 

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audioguy - have a look at RuiPro Hybrid Fibre HDMI, 10m is well within the capabilities of the RuiPro cables.

'Over CAT' has limitations with 4K UHD - most/all Extender solutions have to use some form of 'lossless' compression with the highest bandwidth signal formats.

Ideally ensure whichever way you go you make it easier to make changes further down the line.

Joe
 
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