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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am crossposting this question here because I doubt I will get much response on the DVD forum. For those who are not familiar with Sin City, the movie is mostly black & white, with color used to highlight specific items during some parts of the film.


I started noticing it during Chapter 3, where changes from black to white happen quickly. I doubt it is due to the player, since I tried both a Panny S97 and Sammy HD850 and saw the same problem. I also doubt it is the DVD because I stepped through frame by frame and did not notice any flickers show up. My only other reference is my computer, and I did not notice the problem. This leads me to believe the problem is caused by my plasma. Is this type of effect a known issue or am I crazy? I wish I had other displays to try it out on, but no luck. Perhaps I need to adjust some configuration settings, but not sure what to try.


Thanks,

TZ
 

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Sounds like you're describing the rainbow effect (RBE). Only 1 or 2 others have seen this on the new Pannies. It's typically attributed to the sub-pixel controller. I see no RBE on my PX500, but sounds like you're one of the unlucky few. Try to search for rainbow.
 

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I just got this DVD. I will go check it on my plasma (6 and 7U's) and get back to you.


John
 

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I don't see this on my 6 or 7U Plasmas. I think Cory is right that it is the sub pixel controller causing the effect.


John
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
John-

Thanks for checking this out some of the previous generations.


So, is there anything that can be done configuration wise? I tried to find more info about this but frequently get results stating this is a DLP-only issue.


Thanks,

TZ
 

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I also see this on my fujitsu 40 series 50". And i am sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but chanses are if you are like me it will get a whole lot worse over time. But then again it might not. And i also thought this was a dlp issue only, and it did take me 50 hours of watching before i started noticing it, just a little at first but now i see it a lot. I am getting a scaler and i am hoping it might minimise it along with the isf calibration. But we will see. And i mostly only see it in green.
 

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That is interesting. I see rainbows like mad on DLP. I have NEVER seen them on a Plasma. Odd.


John
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMR
That is interesting. I see rainbows like mad on DLP. I have NEVER seen them on a Plasma. Odd.


John
If color wheels are the reason for seeing rainbows on a DLP, and a Plasma TV doesn't have a color wheel, how can you see a rainbow? The RBE is caused when certain people are able to pick up the seperations of the colors before they are projected on the screen as one. Aren't plasma pixels individually lighted?
 

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Right. I understand the color wheel and rainbows on DLP. What I don't get is how this is showing up on Plasma. Yes, the pixels on a plasma are driven individually. As stated above it seems to be the sub pixel control on the latest Panny consumer models that is causing a simular effect as the rainbows seen on DLP. Does anyone know how those are controlled?


John
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by lipcrkr
If color wheels are the reason for seeing rainbows on a DLP, and a Plasma TV doesn't have a color wheel, how can you see a rainbow? The RBE is caused when certain people are able to pick up the seperations of the colors before they are projected on the screen as one. Aren't plasma pixels individually lighted?
I've never looked at a DLP screen to see the RBE, so I can't compare that to what I am seeing on this movie. I have only seen this issue with this movie, but maybe that is because I am watching scenes that are supposed to be black and white, so I know I should not be seeing blue and yellow flickers. May have to rent another B&W DVD to see if the problem is consistent.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I tried to capture what I am seeing with my camera. Taking pictures doesn't work, so I tried the video capture feature. I apologize for the low quality and resolution and I have to say I think the blue and yellow flashes occur much faster than the video represents. They flashes appear worse in this video and also more defined.

Sin City Clip


I mainly notice the problem when my eyes move to look at a different part of the screen or blink in the middle of a rapid transition between white and black.


TZ
 

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There was a big thread about this when these new sets first came out. Many people were saying it was impossible, mainly because this was referred to as "rainbow effect" which is a dlp-specific thing. I would try not to use that term when talking about what you are seeing to prevent confusion. Try to find that old thread to see if anything was discovered to help.
 

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That clip certainly doesn't look like RBE. It appears to be a strong yellow coloration over large portions of the screen, though I do see some other colors in there. Just curious - Do you have color management off?
 

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Theoryzero,


I have the very same PDP you have, and I just bought Sin City last night. I've not watched the move yet. I will keep my eyes on that problem you describe.


double07,
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
price3,

Thanks, I'll try to look up that old thread. I had been searching for RBE, but found nothing substantial.


housecor,

Yep, color management is off. Again, the video exaggerates the problem. From my own eyes that part of the film is entireley black and white, except for you yellow and blue flashes. The flash is also much quicker in real life, I would say it hapens between frames.


TZ
 

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The old thread is here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=540599


A copy of what I posted:


Yep I see it to on my 50px50u.. The issue is the phosphor/plasma response time, firing time, whatever you want to call it, specifically for the greens..


I'm very aware of RBE on DLPs, and I can see them with minmal effort. My 50PX50U arrived about 1.5 weeks ago and while the picture is stunning, my eyes see what I can only equate to a RBE. Only it is greenish yellow. Not only can I see it in dark scenes w/white objects that move, but even the white of baseball players running fast. To my eyes at times i can see a green blur/flash behind them...


If you find a bright scene in a movie or tv. Wave your hand (with your fingers spread) quickly infront of the plasma and you'll see a green and purplish look to your fingers as they move.


Of course I've adjusted the heck out of the tv to minimize it. Reducing contrast does help, but does not alleviate the issue. I'm still in my first 100 hours, so the tv is very new. Yes I have good cables. No it is not just one input. HDMI, DVD (component), Xbox (component) and Tivo (composite) all suffer from the same thing.


I've yet to go back to a store and sit there and wave my hand infront of all the plasmas...i know i've seen this effect on other brands though... This may just be an issue w/all plasmas.. Ideas? then again, i'm the minority that can see the flicker in the new LED tail-lights on cars... eek.. my eyes must be too good for my own good..


UPDATE #1:

I spoke w/a Panny tech, and its just one of the "gotchas" with the technology, at least according to him... and yes for me, turning down the contrast (duh!) does help.. I'm wondering if with age the phosphors will "die" quicker after being excited as others have reported it being less when the tv had a few hours on it.. May attribute to some Plasmas on display at stores not exhibiting this detail. Also I swear it gets better the longer the tv is on...


UPDATE #2

Stopped off at Best Buy and was waving my hands in front of all the screens and moving my eyes fast. And yes, I can see green flashes on all brands of plasmas. Some are worse than others, but I'm in agreement that it is something in the technology w/the green phosphors having a delay in firing/cooling/heating up whatever you want to call it..


-t

-t
 

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Okay, when I first got my PIO 5050 I watched Assault on Precinct 13 and saw yellow and white periodically flashing throughout the movie. Drove me crazy. I saw it in HD during dark scenes. Now I don't know for sure if we talking about the same phenomenon but now that I have 200 hours on the set I don't see what I was seeing anymore. (Maybe it's cause it really did drive me crazy and I don't know it.) :eek:
 

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I belive as with every other thing you get used to it and the brain just stops taking notice of it. At least i hope so as it is driving me mad, and i am not getting the enjoyment i should out of my $10000 expense (higher prices in Norway)
 

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Guys! Plasmas are phosphor-based displays, you will see this effect on phosphor-based displays depending on the different decay time of the different colored phosphors. Green is slowest. You can also see this on CRT displays. It's a physical property of the phosphors chosen in the set that cannot be altered. Different displays designed for different purposes will have different decay times on the green.


For instance when talking of CRTs, those for home use that take interlaced signals usually have very long green decays, meaning you can see green streaks quite easily on moving bright objects on a black background. However, this helps eliminate visible interlace flicker.


On 3d-motion simulators and such that run at high refresh rates, special fast-decay phosphors are used in the tubes so that there is very little decay time so one image doesn't smear into the next one for the best 3d effect. This requires a high refreesh rate though or flicker will be bad!
 
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