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Discussion Starter #221

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdragon /forum/post/0


It was a light hearted jab, but if "Blu-ray doesn't support 30p" is a 'fact', then "HD-DVD doesn't support 24p" is also a 'fact'. I see that you finally found the answer.




[Nowadays I am not getting enough time to hang around here on AVS. Sorry for the delay]

No probs, kdragon. Yes, we have an answer from paidgeek, who says that bluray "can" do progressive encoding at 30p and 25p with the playback hints.


But he doesn't explain why that sort of content is *not* actually being encoded that way, but instead is encoded interlaced at 60i with 60i hints. Nor does he explain why only two days ago he was still advising "Torsten" to encode his 25p content as 50i.


So what we seem to have here is "in theory" Bluray "could" encode these progressively, but yet there are no examples of it. This is in stark contrast to the HD DVD situation where almost all material is encoded progressively.


It suggests that it is not supported by the Bluray players and/or is not possible to do with current Bluray tools. I suppose I'll gladly retract this statement if we start to see real examples of what Paidgeek is saying is possible.
 

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How many movies are shot 1080p30?
 

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Should this thread be renamed from:


"Bluray does not support 1080p30!! Did not know this! "


to:


"Bluray does support 1080p30!! Did not know this!"

 

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Discussion Starter #224

Quote:
Originally Posted by Li On /forum/post/0


Maybe uncommon in the US. I have lots of Japanese MTV DVDs in 30fps format aka NTSC 2/2 from 60i to 30p. On a "flag" player a simple "weave" gives perfect playback. Standalone deinterlacers such as DVDO's sil504 and Faroudja's FLI2200 also supports NTSC 2/2 for 60i to 30p processing.


Haven't read through the thread, anyway, I also agree a "proper" encoding of 30p in 60i should give perfect 30p playback so it's not a real issue.


regards,


Li On

Hi Li On,


Yes, I'm sure that a lot of the studio material in Japan has been in 30p, since they have been ahead of thre curve on HD, so it makes sense that 2:2 would be more common there.


However, I'm really curious to see if it is properly supported on the BR players and whether this is part of the reason that people are telling the studios not to use it.


I'm going to get an encoder friend to put together a test BR disc with 30p and 25p content to see if we can figure out where the problem lies...
 

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Discussion Starter #225

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilka /forum/post/0


Should this thread be renamed from:


"Bluray does not support 1080p30!! Did not know this! "


to:


"Bluray does support 1080p30!! Did not know this!"


Not for now - there's no proof yet that it can do it, and a lot of evidence that it can't.


Hopefully we'll have a test disc ready soon to check it out in more detail.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdjam /forum/post/0


Not for now - there's no proof yet that it can do it, and a lot of evidence that it can't.

How do you think 25p/30p -> interlaced -> fixed pixel display is going to appear?


It's the same question for for BD and HD DVD, since a lot of people will be using a 1080i transport.


Certainly nobody can expect 25p/30p inputs any time soon.


Gary
 

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Discussion Starter #227

Quote:
Originally Posted by dialog_gvf /forum/post/0


How do you think 25p/30p -> interlaced -> fixed pixel display is going to appear?


It's the same question for for BD and HD DVD, since a lot of people will be using a 1080i transport.


Certainly nobody can expect 25p/30p inputs any time soon.


Gary

The point that Kris has made earlier is that if the player goofs up the 2:2 pulldown, then you lose half the resolution and it will look pretty bad no matter which display to output to...


That's why we're going to run a test.


(BTW - the input to the set is not a problem, all setups will take a 60i or 60p input, regardless of the source, and those with VPs or EU HD sets will also take 50i or 50p inputs. The real issue is what may happen inside the player before it sends that signal to the TV).
 

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All these difficulties in conversion lead me to propose a number of things that "should" be done.


1. Since the CRT is the only true interlaced display (and it's disappearing)` interlaced scanning should be abolished.


2. Film should be shot a 30 FPS. How much longer will real film be used anyway?


3. The PAL countries should consider 30 - 60 FPS to eliminate another conversion headache.


With all of film's qualities, I'm surprised that the film community has held onto slow and juddery 24 FPS for so long - cost, I suppose. Although the mechanical constraints of frame advancement on film may be a factor.


Just tossing a few seeds out.


Dave
 

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Discussion Starter #229

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveKennett /forum/post/0


All these difficulties in conversion lead me to propose a number of things that "should" be done.


1. Since the CRT is the only true interlaced display (and it's disappearing)` interlaced scanning should be abolished.


2. Film should be shot a 30 FPS. How much longer will real film be used anyway?


3. The PAL countries should consider 30 - 60 FPS to eliminate another conversion headache.


With all of film's qualities, I'm surprised that the film community has held onto slow and juddery 24 FPS for so long - cost, I suppose. Although the mechanical constraints of frame advancement on film may be a factor.


Just tossing a few seeds out.


Dave

While I doubt film for movies will change anytime soon, it is becoming much more common to shoot in 25p and 30p.


This is particularly true of sports and concert events, as the action is better suited to a progressive capture.


BTW - I would guess that today, the mechanical constraints would not be the issue - more likely its simply that the whole film industry in 24p and a conversion would likely be unthinkable.


However, there is some fantastic processing coming out now that can take 24 fps and create almost any variation (50p, 60p, 72p) without any judder, simply by creating additional new "in between" frames. Meridian demoed their MCTi solution at CES and I can tell you it looked incredibly good. Hopefully one day this sort of technology will be widely available in all sorts of gadgets.
 

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I see it's been over a year since the last activity in this topic. Is there any new information regarding Blu-ray's support of 30p?


rdjam, were you ever able to run the 30p Blu-ray test?


I have an HD camera capable of recording 30p (I know, technically 29.97p), but I'm hesitant to use this frame rate if Blu-ray doesn't at least support it as SD DVD does using flags.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by benes /forum/post/13991333


Blu-ray has always supported 30p (29.97p). Nine Inch Nails Beside You in Time is such a disc. All that is required is for pulldown flags to be added. The same is true for 25p.


BTW this is exactly the same way that 24p (23.976p) video had to be stored on HDDVD. But people were just too caught up in the format war to think.

HD DVD allows 24p/30p encode, with flags set to output at 60i. In contrast, BD does not allow for 30p encode, with 60i output. The input must come to it using 60i because 30p is not a valid input frame rate to the encoder (it is not part of the spec). And most likely the encoder would be running in interlace mode, rather than progressive. I suppose someone could hack the encoder to not use its interlace tools but since the output cannot be 30p out of the encoder, I am not sure it would be worth the effort.


Sure, the frames are progressive in both cases so we don't have the typical interlace issues to deal with. But two processes are not the same from technical and spec point of view. In one case, you would be converting the 30p frame based source to field based 60i and then encoding, and the other (HD DVD) would have been a straight encode with flags for the player to spit out 60i. Different animals, format war or not
.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faceless Rebel /forum/post/13991792


Why was this old format war thread resurrected?

The poster mentioned why. He wants to know if he can use his camcorder in 30p mode.
 

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Quote:
And I don't believe it would output it as 1080p60 either. So its going to be interlaced output no matter what. And then you can de-interlace it on the display end.

Why not? To recreate 30p would you not just repeat each frame in a 60p encode?


I guess unless any of have direct information from the BD spec no one really knows. In simpliest terms I would think that any frame that is a integer multiple of supported framerate could be recreated on BD.


60p>30p, just encode each frame 2x or set a flag indicating repeat frame...
 

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Quote:
Blu-ray has always supported 30p (29.97p). Nine Inch Nails Beside You in Time is such a disc.

This title was encoded as interlaced. (Interlaced frame/field inside of interlaced elementary stream) We did add a mode to the VC1 encoder (PEP) that would place 30 frame progressive into an interlaced elementary stream, so you could essentially get 30p encoding. Note that the players will output as interlaced because of the interlaced elementary stream.
 

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It seems a year's passage has not improved things much; the state of Blu-ray's support of 29.97p is as murky as ever. At best Blu-ray's support of 29.97p is confusingly ambiguous and at worst non-existent.


Here's irony for you: Panasonic and Sony, two of the developers of Blu-ray, have both released professional HD cameras capable of shooting 29.97p high definition footage. Most of Panasonic's DVCPRO HD line and a number of Sony's XDCAM and pro HDV cameras can capture footage at 29.97p. But what good is this capability when the HD optical disc format these same companies created may not be capable of delivering it?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by benes /forum/post/13998782


Hmm, after re-reading your post I think you are referring to actually encoding the video as 1080p60 on the disc? Of course this is impossible since neither blu-ray nor hddvd support 1080p60.


Many BD players indicate that support 1080p60. I guess the question is if 1080p content can be directly encoded at 60fps.
 

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Regarding the 1080p30 concern, doesn't the "Burning BLU Ray for the 1st time" topic in this very forum provide a glimpse that it is, indeed, possible? The provided video sample is essentially "1080p30" that came from a 1080i60 broadcast.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristopherD /forum/post/13999516


It seems a year's passage has not improved things much; the state of Blu-ray's support of 29.97p is as murky as ever. At best Blu-ray's support of 29.97p is confusingly ambiguous and at worst non-existent.


Here's irony for you: Panasonic and Sony, two of the developers of Blu-ray, have both released professional HD cameras capable of shooting 29.97p high definition footage. Most of Panasonic's DVCPRO HD line and a number of Sony's XDCAM and pro HDV cameras can capture footage at 29.97p. But what good is this capability when the HD optical disc format these same companies created may not be capable of delivering it?

These cameras derive 29.97p form 59.94i, so it is not native 29.97p.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by benes /forum/post/14013479


There is no question. 1080p60 cannot be on a blu-ray disc. The players are only indicating their output support.

Do you have the Blu-ray spec?
 
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