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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I participated some in the rent vs own thread and found it quite interesting actually. Some views I'd never considered. Lately, some other questions came up that I'd like to hear other peoples opinions on. They don't fall under the scope of that thread, so in the interest of etiquette, I'll start this one.


BR right now in my home, gives me basically the same visual experience I can get in a theater. Even some of the newest ones save but some like Imax or a 4K. So, with the resolution being on a par with as good as most of us can see locally, I find myself much more likely to enjoy Home Theater as a whole.


Some of the discussion in the aforementioned thread dealt with previous formats, advances in technology, where it's going, costs, etc. I have far more experience with the evolution of computers than I do with that of entertainment or HT. My first computer was a TRS-80 Model III and my first 5-1/4" floppy drive cost $1400. I'm going to make some comparisons with computers to HT to begin the discussion.


It goes without saying, hardware has come a long way, and a person would be crazy to think it has nowhere left to go.

"There's nothing you can't do in 16k of ram."

"10 Megabytes! What would you need 10 Megs of storage for?"

'A video card with 256K of ram? What for?"

"No one will ever use 2.1 Gigabytes of space...".

"Bigger than a 26" tv?"

Perhaps some here remember comments about the resolution available on dvd.


While some of those statements might seem a bit dated, remember the first computer I worked on had a hard disk that cost $10,000, and the computer w/os cost >20. I can remember reading in Byte Magazine "If the personal computer ever becomes a viable tool for business, the Bus architecture will be the model on which it is built."


Now don't take this the wrong way, I think blu-ray looks great. But it has definite limitations, not the least of which that frames are made up of data from several frames before, and that limitation is the Achilles heel of our digital media, always has been. IMO, that is the #1 item I think should be addressed when formats evolve past blu-ray. As it is, panning as an artistic tool for cinematographers has been eliminated for all intent and purposes. Something of the vastness of scenes gets lost with that. Complete frame data could eliminate this. Again, this all IMO.


Remembering back, the first 3D PC games, Wolfenstien, Doom, Doom II, Duke Nukem, Quake, etc. I owned all of them. Wolfenstein I never really played. Doom on the other hand, that I spent some time at. Now, has anyone here actually loaded Doom up on a PC and seen what it looked like lately? Remember, this was revolutionary. The begining of something incredible. To see it now, you will seriously wonder how you identified the walls from the floor. It is mind boggling. The advances to Doom II were huge, and yet, looking at that today will blow your mind as well. Come forward to Quake, and I had to buy a new video card for $450 to play the game. That did look great, but without the vid card, it was unplayable on even the fastest systems of the day. Move on to todays games, and they're more like watching newsreels on TV than gaming. And I make no bones that I'm sure there's tons of room for improvement still.


When I look at BR as a format, and try to compare it to the computer industry, and about the only difference I see is that in the computer industry, areas can evolve without advances in the others (to some degree). Other than that, it's very similar. Many products can adapt to new tech without replacement. Analogous to say, a firmware update on your BR player.


We must be approaching some limit of res that we need. Homes as a rule won't have screens > 120". Many much smaller. At a certain point, peoples eyes won't be able to resolve more, so there is going to be a place where you really need no more res. I don't think we are there quite yet, but close. At least for the
 

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As far as presenting material shot on 35mm, 2K or even 4K digital, I think we're well past the point of diminishing returns.


There are still improvements that could be made to colour depth, contrast, compression etc., but overall, blu-ray can hold its own against a 35mm release print.


At this point, I can't imagine upgrading to another format for a barely perceptible increase in picture quality.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Spaz /forum/post/18116604


Remembering back, the first 3D PC games, Wolfenstien, Doom, Doom II, Duke Nukem, Quake, etc. I owned all of them. Wolfenstein I never really played. Doom on the other hand, that I spent some time at. Now, has anyone here actually loaded Doom up on a PC and seen what it looked like lately? Remember, this was revolutionary. The begining of something incredible. To see it now, you will seriously wonder how you identified the walls from the floor. It is mind boggling. The advances to Doom II were huge, and yet, looking at that today will blow your mind as well. Come forward to Quake, and I had to buy a new video card for $450 to play the game. That did look great, but without the vid card, it was unplayable on even the fastest systems of the day. Move on to todays games, and they're more like watching newsreels on TV than gaming. And I make no bones that I'm sure there's tons of room for improvement still.

Doom II didn't have any advancements over Doom, just an extra gun and different enemies. I think the minimum specs were even the same. I remember playing Quake on the same computer that I played Doom on. This was from 94-96. The first time I remember actually having to buy a graphics card for a game was in 2001 and I always had older computers.


At my viewing distance, I can't tell a difference between 720p and 1080p, so I don't see a need for me to upgrade until components wear out and equivalents are no longer around so that I have to upgrade. Computer games can force people to upgrade so you can play modern stuff. Movies aren't like that. They were still making VHS movies a few years ago and I don't see DVD going anywhere for a long time. Blu-ray (and HD-DVD) discs are capable of more than most people will ever use them for, so I don't see resolution increasing just to increase. If anything, the next big moves will be things like 3D, 2.35:1 TV's and projectors, and other oddball stuff that companies will do to try to distance themselves from each other.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
@MSmith,

That can't be the original Doom. Just by virtue that it's widescreen tells me that's some newer rendition of it. Iirc, I played that first in 320x240. Take a screenie at 320x240 or even 640x480 and then blow that baby up! Very cool shot tho.


@tjeepdrv,

I can't remember if it was Quake 1 or 2, but I do distinctly remember attempting to get it to play without an accelerated video card and it simply wasn't happening. I remember looking at resolutions of 160x??? and it was still slow. I gave up and bought a video card. Now, we're going back too far for me to say what it was, I bought a LOT of stuff, but it was probably my first Matrox Millenium cause I remember that card being quite pricey. Once I moved from Matrox to Canopus I don't think I ever returned. I had several cards with Riva chipsets, but where on the timeline they fell I don't know.


Quote:
@worth At this point, I can't imagine upgrading to another format for a barely perceptible increase in picture quality.

Well, I guess that's one of the questions is, will there be such a thing as an increase worthy of mass acceptance? I suspect yes, but I have no idea when or what it will be.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Spaz /forum/post/18117249


@MSmith,

That can't be the original Doom. Just by virtue that it's widescreen tells me that's some newer rendition of it. Iirc, I played that first in 320x240. Take a screenie at 320x240 or even 640x480 and then blow that baby up! Very cool shot tho.

It is the original Doom WAD file running through a source port with an OpenGL renderer. It has a few visual enhancements, but that is one way the game can look like today.



You're right in that the unaltered game looks much poorer.
 

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Until I go much larger than my current 52" LCD screen I believe 1080p/BD fits the "bang for buck" for me. I've bought/sold three different BD players and one 55" crt just to get current without losing too much money on upgrading equipment. Luckily I waited until HD to start my HT, although it was at 1080i when I did. I still get the WOW factor on quality BD titles. I also believe the storage will marginally increase on BD as well in the near future which will help keep us all interested, hopefully.
 

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IMHO, here is the ultimate truth: Home video technology is absolutely bound by display technology. Our display technology is absolutely bound to commercial broadcast standards.


Now, this is not to say that there can't be "specialized" displays at even higher resolution or that there is a limit to what can be done in a lab.


However, a commercially viable, mass market home video technology will be based on the technology used by broadcasters, content providers, display manufacturers, and electronics retailers. For that reason, I doubt that we will see any new COMMERCIAL technology for HOME use for at least a generation (speaking in terms of resolution). I think 1080p is probably "it" for the next 25 years (after which, I'll be dead so I don't care).


For that reason, I think Blu-ray will have a long life as the high end, home video format.


Yes, the technology to "bust out" of 1080p does exist. But here's the deal: everybody involved in the high definition industry has mortgaged there lives to make the move to high defintion based on current standards. Producers, broadcasters, retailers and consumers have spent huge amounts of money to adopt high definition FOR THE HOME which, in essence, tops out at 1080p. While the technology exists to develop much higher resolution and the things that go with it, I don't think ANYBODY is going to be in the mood to make a change.


Look at how long it's taken to get people to accept the move from SD to HD. If somebody comes along in five years with a more advanced, higher resolution system, I think the response will be a collective: "Screw you"
.


So, assuming that 1080p remains the commercial gold standard for many years, there is little reason to replace BD. People still like to own physical media. And, as physical media, BD is a friendly technology that is easy to manufacture. While other things like downloads and streaming may SUPPLEMENT Blu-ray, I still think that BD has a long future as the physical media of choice.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSmith83 /forum/post/18117403


It is the original Doom WAD file running through a source port with an OpenGL renderer. It has a few visual enhancements, but that is one way the game can look like today.



You're right in that the unaltered game looks much poorer.

Well, of course the point I was trying to illustrate was how far the development has come, and still has to go. At the time Doom released, if you were playing that at 320x240, you were roughly at the same resolution as you had for your television. Your VHS tapes of the day, horrible by todays standards, were a pretty vast improvement over most peoples broadcast or cable, if that was even available, and to me it was not.


You posted while I was typing Dex. Very insightful. I'll think about that a bit.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjeepdrv /forum/post/18117027


If anything, the next big moves will be things like 3D, 2.35:1 TV's and projectors, and other oddball stuff that companies will do to try to distance themselves from each other.

Yeah, I think the next successful formats will be coming around when it is commonplace for people to have affordable, ultra-thin displays hanging on walls that match the size of some of today's biggest home theater projection setups. I'm thinking along the lines of displays that will easily roll-up, thus allowing for borderless modular additions and unique viewing experiences based on the content.


There will be a few extra gimmicks thrown in for good measure to make the experience all the more interactive, but this aspect will of course be targeted for films made at the time.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by worth /forum/post/18116878


As far as presenting material shot on 35mm, 2K or even 4K digital, I think we're well past the point of diminishing returns.


There are still improvements that could be made to colour depth, contrast, compression etc., but overall, blu-ray can hold its own against a 35mm release print.

At this point, I can't imagine upgrading to another format for a barely perceptible increase in picture quality.

How about a format that delivered:


4K resolution


12 bit color space


A Dynamic Range that is 2X greater than what we have today
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart /forum/post/18118152


How about a format that delivered:


4K resolution


12 bit color space


A Dynamic Range that is 2X greater than what we have today

I've seen test footage sourced from 35mm film comparing 4K to 2K, projected on a fifty foot screen in a commercial theatre and there really wasn't much of a difference. Long shots might have looked a touch crisper, and if the image was paused and examined in detail there might have been noticeable differences, but in motion it was negligible. So I can't imagine there'd be any difference on even the largest home theatre screen.


As digital technology continues to improve and films are shot at 4K and even higher resolutions, then there may be significant improvements.


As for improvements in colour and dynamic range, it's hard to say. I'd have to see them for myself, but again I'm not sure there'd be that much of a difference on all but the highest end, most revealing equipment.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by worth /forum/post/18118577


I've seen test footage sourced from 35mm film comparing 4K to 2K, projected on a fifty foot screen in a commercial theatre and there really wasn't much of a difference. Long shots might have looked a touch crisper, and if the image was paused and examined in detail there might have been noticeable differences, but in motion it was negligible. So I can't imagine there'd be any difference on even the largest home theatre screen.

That test footage that you speak of wasn't a standard high speed 35mm print affected by MTF. Not if your observation is correct. It would have to be sourced directly from the camera negative - something the public never sees. Like a Daily.

Quote:
As digital technology continues to improve and films are shot at 4K and even higher resolutions, then there may be significant improvements.

There are 4 main aspects of image construction. Resolution is but one of them and some consider it the least important. The other 3 are:


Contrast/Dynamic Range

Color Depth

Gray Scale

Quote:
As for improvements in colour and dynamic range, it's hard to say. I'd have to see them for myself, but again I'm not sure there'd be that much of a difference on all but the highest end, most revealing equipment.

Don't discount HDR:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_dynamic_range_imaging


And incresed color depth gets rid of color banding, something that has plagued video since it relys on 8/24 bit depth.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by worth /forum/post/18116878


There are still improvements that could be made to colour depth, contrast, compression etc., but overall, blu-ray can hold its own against a 35mm release print.

If you are blind maybe.
 

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It depends on what we're talking about and comparing it to. Did the film go through a DI process? What is the quality of the print? Is the BD filtered/DNRed/EEed/overcompressed/etc? There are many variables so it's not just film vs digital. I've seen some pretty lousy 35mm prints that were inferior to the version on BD and I've seen some lousy BDs that were inferior to what I saw in the theater.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pointless2 /forum/post/18120933


I agree, Blu-ray does not even come close to 35mm.


If you've seen the digital video projected ads and TV promos that come before a feature shown in theaters today, that is what Blu-ray looks like compared to 35mm.

Most of the cinema ads that play before the main feature are SD video and are displayed by consumer grade digital projectors - and not even very good ones at that - so it's hardly a fair comparison.


If you've ever seen HD video in the theatre displayed by a half decent 2K digital projector, you'll see that the differences aren't nearly so pronounced. Resolution is actually a bit better on HD, but it lacks the colour purity and dynamic range of a good film print and also has a somewhat flatter, edgier, more "electronic" look.


I prefer the look of 35mm film - I'm not convinced that digital video will ever produce an image that looks as smooth and organic as film does, but then I don't have a fifty foot screen at home and I don't think very many people do.


For home video purposes, I find blu-ray more than adequate.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart /forum/post/18118797


That test footage that you speak of wasn't a standard high speed 35mm print affected by MTF. Not if your observation is correct. It would have to be sourced directly from the camera negative - something the public never sees. Like a Daily.

The test footage was scanned at 4K and 2K, respectively, from a 35mm negative and was displayed by a 4K projector - I think it was one of the Sony SXRDs, but it might have been DLP, I can't remember.


It was to decide whether it was worth the added expense to have the film scanned at 4K rather than 2K, so I'd imagine everything was done to ensure that the 4K footage looked superior.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by worth /forum/post/18121446


For home video purposes, I find blu-ray more than adequate.

2nd that.


BD is geared to the home market and 35mm is geared toward the theatre and the 2 won't be crossing into the others space in our time.


So...Do you really need a formula one car to drive to the corner store...I know some will want one anyway but really...
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
The whole film vs digital debate is really a moot point because theaters are going digital whether they want to or not. So from that view, considering how close Blu-ray is to our current theatrical presentations, I have to say it's pretty darn close. I disagree that the pre-curtain ads they show are representitive of BR vs 35mm. I don't believe that.


2K is certainly more resolution than BR, and especially if the BR is 2.35 or near. I assume that the theatrical presentations of 2.35 material use the whole 2Kx1K res and use a A-lens to correct the aspect. Please correct me if I understand that wrong. Either way, the Additional resolution 2K offers over Blu should not be a concern to a home user for all but the most revealing systems. Leaves mine out for sure.

Quote:
IMHO, here is the ultimate truth: Home video technology is absolutely bound by display technology. Our display technology is absolutely bound to commercial broadcast standards.

After giving this some thought, I have to disagree somewhat. Yea, I guess there's relationships, but we've all been watching content on incorrect aspect displays for years now, and we've just come to expect that. 2.35 displays are already on the market, but they're not a cure-all solution, they simply work for more movies than any other ratio. I saw the other day a news channel was broadcast in 2.35? I thought, huh? Well, for cable it makes sense cause they can crop the image and send less data. Finally 1.78 displays become the norm, time to change the broadcast format. Go figure.


I've not read any views about this next question on the forum, but what is the chance Hollywood will begin to produce movies with a 30fps framerate, so as to more standardize the process now that the digital recording movement has gotten to full swing? Back when film-stock and cameras forced them to retain the 24fps, it was understandable. Now that they could change the framerate at will, it seems it's time to move away from 24 and go to 30/60. At least it makes sense to me. Yes, that's a big hit on the media space for home video, but it's not a factor of 10 or anything that should really concern anyone. And that "price" being paid of needing extra space might have the tradeoff benefit of better image quality and smoother motion, along with an easier path to home video, at least here domestically in the US. I am of course assuming BR is not somehow locked to the 24fps.
 
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