[WanMan]

About a month or so ago I thought I read some posts/threads here and there about the next generation of X-Box gaming console. Some of the information I garnered, while I don't know of its accuracy, suggested that Microsoft had chosen to license the video processing technology from ATI and as of a falling out with nVidia.


Part of the consumer concern I share is the potential loss of backward compatibilty. With an ATI chipset being used, I would find Microsoft's capabilities to right an emulator to handle nVidia-specific video coding to be extremely questionable.


So, if the X-box is not capable of backward capability (please let me know if this turns out to be a non-issue), I wonder about the future of X-Box in general. While I am sure Microsoft will always have new customers, I am really concern about potential investment losses.


For instance, I took out an insurance policy last summer when i bought the X-box in that in event the console fails I get a new one over a period of two years. But, what if it fails within this two-year period of time? Oops, the replacement is at the cost of games I cannot play, and games I will be forced to replace.


Now, I don't mind spending money on insurance under the auspices of that my protection on the console offers a continued play of games I already own, but this is being fundamentally challenge due to Microsoft business practices in a next generation gaming console that shares nothing with its past.


I wonder if I am really worrying about anything, or is there really something to worry about. I don't like the idea of throwaway platforms where everything invested in one generation's platform is worthless to the next generation. Does anyone feel the same?

 

[chris5977]

So this a joke, right?


Nobody in their right mind would get insurance on a $180 toy, would they?

 

[bapenguin]

i think he's talking about the ESA they have at like EB.


Video will not be an issue in backwards compatibility, it will be more of the processor (they are going to a PowerPC style architecture). No need to worry about that either, as they will simply emulate the XBox 1 in software for the most part.

 

[JuiceRocket]

Quote:

Originally posted by WanMan I wonder if I am really worrying about anything, or is there really something to worry about. I don't like the idea of throwaway platforms where everything invested in one generation's platform is worthless to the next generation. Does anyone feel the same?

That IS what platforms are. They are throwaway hardware. The only backwards compatible platform was the PS2, and I'm pretty sure everyone saw how absolutely useless and simply a marketing gimmick that was. That is unless of course, you enjoy playing such graphic masterpieces as Tenchu on your PS2.


I always know when I buy a console that it's going to be outdated in 2-3 years, it's just that simple. When you buy a PC, you're talking 1-2 years before your CPU is outdated, your ram is outdated, and your $500 video card is now selling for $125 on pricewatch.


It's just the nature of the business.


-JR

 

[MrSquid]

Quote:

Originally posted by JuiceRocket The only backwards compatible platform was the PS2, and I'm pretty sure everyone saw how absolutely useless and simply a marketing gimmick that was.

That's just what I was thinking. When I picked up my PS2, I came home with SSX and the Madden for that year. I figured that when I was tired of those, I'd have my PS1 games to fall back on until I picked something up. Well after playing PS2 games, it was REALLY tough to play a PS1 game for more than a few minutes. I'd have to guess that my PS1 games probably spent less than 2 hours in my PS2 in 3 or 4 years I owned it. (recently gave it and all my games to my nephew for Christmas)


Granted... the quality jump we saw from PS1 games to X-box games is HUGE - but chances good that the ability to play X1 games on an X2 console (if it will be possible) will still look more impressive on a feature list than it will on your TV.

 

[dschroll]

Actually, IGN did a big article on the XBOX 2 fairly recently. One of the major things they touched on was that most likely the XBOX 2 will NOT be backwards compatible with XBOX games.


Who knows what MS will do at this stage? It's really too early to tell. They may not bother with backwards compatibility because it might be too much of a headache to deal with. I agree that it is something that's nice to see on paper, but I really don't play PS1 games much on my PS2....maybe DDR, but that's about it. However, I have used my GBA to play some old GBC games, so that was a nice feature for the GBA in my opinion.


I agree that the jump from the 32 bit systems to the 128 systems was definitely a noticable improvement. I don't think we'll see as big of a jump from the 128 bit consoles to the 256 bit ones though. I'm sure the graphics and such will be improved, but the jump won't be nearly as big. So, playing your old 128 bit games on your 256 console may not be as far fetched as people think. Especially when there are some great games this generation that I would definitely like to hold onto well into the next one

 

[WanMan]

Quote:

Originally posted by chris5977 So this a joke, right? Nobody in their right mind would get insurance on a $180 toy, would they?

Yeah, I'm joking. NOT!


For $15-20 I got completely replacement, not a repair. Also, if Microsoft comes out within said period (2-years) there is an 800# I call and get a coupon for what I paid (then, $200) off the next generation X-Box.


Being that this was my first console ever (formerly a dedicated PC gamer), I thought I couldn't lose considering the history of consoles were new generations were backward-compatible and thus getting the next generation X-Box (in the event mine died) would still allow me to play my games in my pre-existing collection. This is no longer the case.
Quote:

Originally posted by JuiceRocket That IS what platforms are. They are throwaway hardware. The only backwards compatible platform was the PS2, and I'm pretty sure everyone saw how absolutely useless and simply a marketing gimmick that was. That is unless of course, you enjoy playing such graphic masterpieces as Tenchu on your PS2. -JR

Really? Then two questions:


First, when I sat on the fence for several months while others in this chatroom offered me advice and encouragement, one of their points was that the games will out-last the console via backward-compatibility. No one mentioned in any and all threads about a generation of given gaming console, along with its games, were a one-off deal.


Secondly, if your point were the case then no one would ever consider backward compatibility, including Sony. But, there is sufficient consumer expectation for backward compatibility that it IS discussed. Just because you, personally, do not carry games forward to newer generations of platform X, doesn't exactly seem to be the case for all.


dschroll, I would think that Microsoft's only saving grace would be one of two options:


Get someone (anyone) to write an emulator that will allow XB1 games to be played on the next generation of X-Box console or the PC, or they offer a trade-in allowance to cash in XB1 games in favor of the new XB2 versions of the same games.

 

[dschroll]

Wanman,


The emulator case is alot more realistic than the trade in allowance. Heck, Nintendo has never made a console backwards compatible yet and Nintendo fans still buy the next new console they release. However, times have changed and consumers want more from their game consoles....they want them to last longer and have more options. I'm sure MS knows that backwards compatibility is important to some people. As I said, they're pretty much in the designing stages of it at this point. They may decide it's worth the effort in making sure XBOX games are playable on XBOX 2. They may also weigh everything out and feel it's not worth the effort and would rather focus on making some great launch games for it like Halo 3 rather than worrying about if Halo 1 can be playable on it. We'll see.....I'm sure if there's enough demand and people are loud enough MS will listen. They listened to all the complaints about their horrible first XBOX controller and they came back with the 1000 times better S controller.


The very big nice thing that XBOX 2 has going for it is XBOX Live. That's the beauty of XBOX Live.....it is hardware independent and XBOX 2 will have immediate access to it.


It's all up in the air at this point, so it's best not to worry about such things and just keep enjoying your XBOX. Chances are by the time XBOX 2 comes out, XBOX's will be selling for $99. If it turns out that XBOX 2 isn't backwards compatible, I'd just nab a cheap spare XBOX to play all your XBOX games on if you feel that you want to keep them

 

[Mike99TA]

Who cares if a console is backward compatible? Just keep the console you already have, when a new one comes out, if you want it, buy it, then you have both consoles and can play both games. It's really not that big of deal guys


PS: Gameboy has always been backward compatible, long before PS2 did it (in fact Gameboy Advance SP's can play games from every gameboy system since the very first one that came out in 1989).

 

[MrSquid]

Quote:

Originally posted by WanMan For $15-20 I got completely replacement, not a repair. Also, if Microsoft comes out within said period (2-years) there is an 800# I call and get a coupon for what I paid (then, $200) off the next generation X-Box.

The coupon in the event of an upgrade alone would be worth that. I got my Xbox this past July - and I'd have definitely jumped on that deal had it been offered! Out of curiousity, what store offered this?

 

[ShawnPeters]

WanMan,


That last point dschroll made was exactly what I was thinking. IF your XBox kicks the bucket, there will be plenty around (new or used) at a low price. I know I can still buy a used Dreamcast and N64 if mine poop out. But, I also understand your point of view with regards to not implementing backward compatibility - just because everyone does it doesn't make it acceptable. I guess it all boils down to consumer demand. If MS doesn't implement it, maybe they'll feel it in sales. Only time will tell.

Shawn

 

[dschroll]

Quote:

PS: Gameboy has always been backward compatible, long before PS2 did it (in fact Gameboy Advance SP's can play games from every gameboy system since the very first one that came out in 1989).

I knew about Gameboy being backwards compatible. I just didn't mention it because I was referring to consoles, not portables. Nonetheless, I do admit I do use the backwards compatibility of my GBA SP more than I have on my PS2

 

[WanMan]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike99TA Who cares if a console is backward compatible? Just keep the console you already have, when a new one comes out, if you want it, buy it, then you have both consoles and can play both games. It's really not that big of deal guys PS: Gameboy has always been backward compatible, long before PS2 did it (in fact Gameboy Advance SP's can play games from every gameboy system since the very first one that came out in 1989).

And if the X-Box dies a sudden death? This is the scenario I Am TALKING ABOUT.


dschroll, my concern is in garnering the ability to actually write an emulator. I think the reason why XB2 isn't backward compatible is because nVidia refused to write the emulator for Microsoft's XB2. As a result, I bet any attempt by anyone outside of nVidia writing such an emulator will find themselves in legal waters. Kinda like nVidia's ace in the hole.


MrSquid, it was an arrangement between Best Buy and Microsoft. Initially, I thought it was just a replacement plan, but it went well beyond the typical coverage for the 2-year period. I figured my backward-compatible XB2 would do just if my XB1 had a sudden and 'mysterious' death.

 

[NoThru22]

I think backwards compatibility is a rarely used gimmick. PS2 graphics suck enough... why would I want to see PS1 on my big screen? Just my 37 cents.

 

[WanMan]

Well, being that I come from a PC world of sorts, I can tell you I had about three generations worth of computing hardware during the +3 years I played Counter-Strike, which was after HL/TFC stint.


Sometimes game functionality is more substance than eye candy.

 

[mrcalypso]

They are most likely working on an emulator because they purchased the company that makes virtual pc which is a pc emulator for the mac. The new xbox (xbox 2??) is rumoured to be using a power pc cpu (g5)similar to the one that macs use so it seems highly feasible that they are going to use that technology for the next xbox.

 

[WanMan]

I thought the were using Virtual PC because there is an underlying operating system that is embedded. But I think I know what you are getting at. Hope the processor is well-endowed in the performance department as running a entire PC emulator has never been efficient, IMO.

 

[spam101]

Rumors has it that X2 will be based on a 2+GHz Power PC processor. Whether this is powerful/fast enough to fully emulate a 733Mhz Celeron is still unknown. In computing circles, a general guideline to that you will need a processor 10 times as powerful as the system you are emulating.

PS2 is able to get away with it as Sony managed to squeeze the entire PS1 into a single chip.

ATi has been selected as the technology provider for X2. Since most XBox games are basically runnin gon DirectX 8, the current generation of games should be able to run on the ATi platform with minimum emulation setup.

 

[WanMan]

It would have to greatly exceed being able to emulate the 733MHz Celeron as right now some games start/load slowly, and map changes in some games are a 45-second wait.

 

[metroid]

Aside the CPU issue, the nVidia/ATI issue is very real. When Never Winter Nights was first released Bioware hadn't implimented shiny water (whch iirc is pixel shaders) into the game that could use ATI's drivers. nVidia and ATI in atleast this case use two completly different pieces of software to hardware to do the job. Emulation might not be possible or atleast not very easy.