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Discussion Starter #1
I though I was doing ok on my definitions, but I read a review(not pro) of a speaker I would consider to be on the warm side (and a little dull). The person said it was very “bright”. Now in defense of the reviewer, he did say it was “out of the box” so it obviously wasn’t “broken in”.


However, it go me thinking……Is there a correlation between “brightness” and the detail in a speaker?


For example, is there a “warm” speaker that is very detailed? It seems most speakers that are known for their “detail” are at least a little “bright/forward”.


What’s the “official” word?


Looking forward to the education.


Thanks.
 

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Klipsch in my opinion are a more brighter sounding speaker, and to many can be overly bright. A good brand that gives you great detail yet a warmer sound, atleast in my testing, is Infinity's Primus and Classia series.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Here's the Review I was talking about.


Quote:

I compared this speaker right out of the box (in my living room) to a broken-in Polk Rti12 - yes the huge model. I listened with the fade in the center and then just the left or right channel only through my HK 3485 @ 120 watt's/channel. The only differences I heard were that the DV64 was a bit brighter and the bass not quite as smooth. For movies this speaker probably outperforms the rti hands down, for music, especially jazz/classical, it will perform very well, but not as well as the rti12. I imagine, if you have Ed Frias (and I might do this) mess with the crossovers, these 2 speakers would be identical in sound, just the DV64 is half the rti12 size and wrapped in vinyl instead of that beautiful cherry. Not that the wood grain vinyl looks bad.

All in all, for what I paid (less than half price all through amazon so everything was well below retail pricing), and the ease of shipping (I had to send my rti12's back the first round due to damage - they are over 80lbs a piece), the DV64's are the way to go - especially if you are into rock/rap/alternative/movies. Just turn the treble down a bit on the stereo or AVR, cause man they are BRIGHT!"
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triaxtremec /forum/post/14307889


Klipsch in my opinion are a more brighter sounding speaker, and to many can be overly bright. A good brand that gives you great detail yet a warmer sound, atleast in my testing, is Infinity's Primus and Classia series.

Not to derail the thread, but how do those Classia's sound? Did you listen to the C336? I have been looking for reviews of these speakers with no success for a while. Feel free to PM me with your impressions.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by carolinablues /forum/post/14309782


Here's the Review I was talking about.


Quote:

I compared this speaker right out of the box (in my living room) to a broken-in Polk Rti12 - yes the huge model. I listened with the fade in the center and then just the left or right channel only through my HK 3485 @ 120 watt's/channel. The only differences I heard were that the DV64 was a bit brighter and the bass not quite as smooth. For movies this speaker probably outperforms the rti hands down, for music, especially jazz/classical, it will perform very well, but not as well as the rti12. I imagine, if you have Ed Frias (and I might do this) mess with the crossovers, these 2 speakers would be identical in sound, just the DV64 is half the rti12 size and wrapped in vinyl instead of that beautiful cherry. Not that the wood grain vinyl looks bad.

All in all, for what I paid (less than half price all through amazon so everything was well below retail pricing), and the ease of shipping (I had to send my rti12's back the first round due to damage - they are over 80lbs a piece), the DV64's are the way to go - especially if you are into rock/rap/alternative/movies. Just turn the treble down a bit on the stereo or AVR, cause man they are BRIGHT!"

Could also mean that the speakers are being listened to in an improperly treated room (one with a lot of hard, reflective surfaces and not enough furniture or other things to smooth out the response).


There are times when the biggest problem isn't actually the speaker, but the room in which it is placed. I'll only mention Klipsch because it was referenced earlier: that is an example where a particular brand can get a bad rap without investigating further.


Klipsch (especially the newer Reference series) have a very detailed, crisp high end. That is not to everyone's liking. Put it in a room with carpets, thick drapes, heavy furniture and maybe some bookshelves and you may find that this "bright" speaker sounds incredibly good. Take a speaker with a less pronounced high end and put it in the same room and you may wonder where the high end went.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triaxtremec /forum/post/14307889


Klipsch in my opinion are a more brighter sounding speaker, and to many can be overly bright. A good brand that gives you great detail yet a warmer sound, atleast in my testing, is Infinity's Primus and Classia series.

Speaker sound is very personal thus generic classifications are of limited use.


I for one do not find the Klisch RF-63, RF-83 bright. They have a very detailed sound without being bright.


On the other hand what some would call warm sounding speakers, in my opinion loose a ton of detail, they appear to be missing significant portion of the sound I hear with the Klipsch RF-83s. (this was in relation to Infinity, Def Tech and Mirage). Also, IMHO you not only loose detail, but you loose dynamics of the music - warm speakers to me sound lifeless (dead)


However, as I said, sound is such a personal taste issue, that to me reviews only serve to eliminate the really bad speakers. From there there is no substitute for auditioning. You have to choose, not the reviewer, or another person's taste.
 

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If you're going to apply an objective definition to a word like "brightness," which it makes sense to do or else everyone who uses the term might mean something different, then it means a bloat in the upper frequency range. Subjective opinions aside, a speaker's "brightness" can only be evaluated by looking at in-room frequency response.


The terms "brightness" and "detail" are sometimes associated because high frequency sound seems "precise" to listeners, so a bloat in that range can give the impression of more detail, but the connection is really more subjective than it is objective. "Detail" exists throughout the entire frequency response range.


Also, my understanding is that "dark" is the opposite or "bright." "Warm" is the opposite of "cold." According to the glossary link posted above, "warmth" is a property of the lower mid range, not the upper range. Hence, a speaker can in theory be bright and warm at the same time, but not bright and dark, or warm and cold.


Audiophiles use visual (e.g. bright and dark) and tactile (e.g. warm and cold) terms to describe auditory sensations. And their definitions are not very consistent. IMO, it's almost impossible to get an accurate description of sound from another listener. Only objective data, and your own listening, are relevant.


- dave
 

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Quote:
Audiophiles use visual (e.g. bright and dark) and tactile (e.g. warm and cold) terms to describe auditory sensations. And their definitions are not very consistent. IMO, it's almost impossible to get an accurate description of sound from another listener. Only objective data, and your own listening, are relevant.

^....and even if you could get a bright person to warm up to the idea of using cold, hard data, they might still be in the dark as to how it all translates into a real world listening experience.
 

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Forget all the garbage regarding bright, warm, etc as it's always relative and everyone's fixed point is different not to mention hearing. Listen to speakers and trust your ears.
 

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brightness can exaggerate detail, making it more apparent, or giving the illusion of more detail. But the best speakers are those that have very flat and neutral sound, and have a lot of real details. Real details depend on the transient response abilities of the drivers I think, such as ribbon tweeters in comparison with dome ones have a lot lower moving mass and faster transient response, as well as higher extension, yeilding more details (although having higher distortion and less power handling). Woofers like the magnesium ones of Seas Excel line, or Accuton ceramic woofers, will have great detail because of really low mass cones, strong magnets, rigid baskets and advanced engineering throughout. Uneven frequency response can conceal the details at the null frequencies, but with cheap drivers they're just not gonna be there in the first place.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidw /forum/post/14310544


Also, my understanding is that "dark" is the opposite or "bright." "Warm" is the opposite of "cold." According to the glossary link posted above, "warmth" is a property of the lower mid range, not the upper range. Hence, a speaker can in theory be bright and warm at the same time, but not bright and dark, or warm and cold.

Exactly. I have tried to make this point many times in the past. Bright and warm are not opposites and are not mutually exclusive. I consider my KEFS to be both bright and warm.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Great stuff.


So "dark" would be lacking in the high frequency. “Cold” would be lacking in the low-mid frequency.


What would be the opposite of detail? Inaccurate?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by carolinablues /forum/post/14309782


Here's the Review I was talking about.


Quote:

I compared this speaker right out of the box (in my living room) to a broken-in Polk Rti12 - yes the huge model. I listened with the fade in the center and then just the left or right channel only through my HK 3485 @ 120 watt's/channel. The only differences I heard were that the DV64 was a bit brighter and the bass not quite as smooth. For movies this speaker probably outperforms the rti hands down, for music, especially jazz/classical, it will perform very well, but not as well as the rti12. I imagine, if you have Ed Frias (and I might do this) mess with the crossovers, these 2 speakers would be identical in sound, just the DV64 is half the rti12 size and wrapped in vinyl instead of that beautiful cherry. Not that the wood grain vinyl looks bad.

All in all, for what I paid (less than half price all through amazon so everything was well below retail pricing), and the ease of shipping (I had to send my rti12's back the first round due to damage - they are over 80lbs a piece), the DV64's are the way to go - especially if you are into rock/rap/alternative/movies. Just turn the treble down a bit on the stereo or AVR, cause man they are BRIGHT!"


Did he MEASURE them in EXACTLY the same position in the room? Move a speaker a foot to the left or right, and the in-room response curves are quite different. That would make a far greater difference than speaker break-in.


Also, a general comment about brightness and detail. I've found that perceived brightness is usually because of an upper midrange response elevation or resonance, and detail is because of a treble rise. "Brightness" can be annoying, but "detail" usually isn't. I prefer neutral, but that is another thread.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triaxtremec /forum/post/14307889


Klipsch in my opinion are a more brighter sounding speaker, and to many can be overly bright. A good brand that gives you great detail yet a warmer sound, atleast in my testing, is Infinity's Primus and Classia series.


I think the Infinity Betas are up there or just about even with the Klipsch in terms of brightness, but thats just my ears. I also agree, the Primus and Classia seemed toned down a bit when compared to the betas.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by carolinablues /forum/post/14309782


Here's the Review I was talking about.


Quote:

I compared this speaker right out of the box (in my living room) to a broken-in Polk Rti12 - yes the huge model. I listened with the fade in the center and then just the left or right channel only through my HK 3485 @ 120 watt's/channel. The only differences I heard were that the DV64 was a bit brighter and the bass not quite as smooth. For movies this speaker probably outperforms the rti hands down, for music, especially jazz/classical, it will perform very well, but not as well as the rti12. I imagine, if you have Ed Frias (and I might do this) mess with the crossovers, these 2 speakers would be identical in sound, just the DV64 is half the rti12 size and wrapped in vinyl instead of that beautiful cherry. Not that the wood grain vinyl looks bad.

All in all, for what I paid (less than half price all through amazon so everything was well below retail pricing), and the ease of shipping (I had to send my rti12's back the first round due to damage - they are over 80lbs a piece), the DV64's are the way to go - especially if you are into rock/rap/alternative/movies. Just turn the treble down a bit on the stereo or AVR, cause man they are BRIGHT!"

This is somewhat OT and I mention it only because it's somewhat alluded to in the review, but to the OP...


Once you get the whole bright vs. warm thing figured out for speakers, you'll start bumping into the same discussion regarding electronics and how one can "cure" a speaker's brightness with a warm amp (and vice versa), but IMO, this is rarely a successful effort. Nothing wrong with liking a bit brighter/warmer speaker. Just be honest with yourself about what *you* like. It's hard to get a leopard to change it's spots...again...IMO.



Scott
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by carolinablues /forum/post/14311855


Great stuff.


So "dark" would be lacking in the high frequency. “Cold” would be lacking in the low-mid frequency.


What would be the opposite of detail? Inaccurate?

Muffled, smeaered, muddy, compressed, mushy.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by carolinablues /forum/post/14311855


What would be the opposite of detail? Inaccurate?

undetailed



imprecise

indiscriminate
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I have a new KEF iQ3’s that have “really’ impressed me in the last 3 weeks.

They are for sure a very detailed speaker(spectacular).


My problem is they are sooooo smooth…….I can’t decide if they are more like “velvet” or more like ‘silk”. Defiantly not linen(not that there is anything wrong with that!)


I ordered an pair of AV123 x-ls encore bookshelfs(for no real reason), But I am looking forward to hearing them and trying to differentiate the two(if the av123 ever get here). I think the word on the street is that they are on the warmer side, and I’m hoping they still have some nice detail.


Is there any word on AV123 being “detailed” speakers?
 
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