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Looks like a great room. What is your vertical viewing angle from the MLP? Your renderings make it look like it's somewhere around 26+ degrees which seems high compared with CEDIA/SMPTE recs
 

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Discussion Starter #142
Looks like a great room. What is your vertical viewing angle from the MLP? Your renderings make it look like it's somewhere around 26+ degrees which seems high compared with CEDIA/SMPTE recs
I'm sure it is somewhat high. But I like to recline in my comfortable Lazy Boy recliner. And when I got my new screen in 2017 I wanted to keep my front floorstanding Aerial Acoustics 7ts, which I'm keeping in front now as well, and I needed the screen to be above my front speakers, which I could do since I have high 11.93' ceiling.

I do not have the room to build out in front of the front screen wall. And even if I wanted to spend guzooka bucks to build out the theater further into my side yard, I would have to get another variance from the Town of Gilbert to do that.
 
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Discussion Starter #143
I just had a great email exchange with Jon Herron of Trinnov. As always, Jon is most responsive and helpful - getting back to me with like 2 days even though it was Memorial Day weekend. Typical!

Here's our discussion, with Jon's answers in bold print below:

We FINALLY are getting this rolling and Gerry Behm sent out the above photos and theater layout (Microsoft Visio) to Quest Acoustical Interiors for their recommendations. I have decided to get a Q-Sys Core 110f for subwoofer, etc setup, so Adam Pelz has advised that I will only need to use one subwoofer output from my Altitude 32 (24 channels) for subwoofers. I have been watching your Trinnov seminars and also reviewing your Widescreen Review articles discussing speakers and placement. We previously discussed, based on using 2 outputs for subwoofers (now only using one output for subwoofers) from Altitude 32 having a 11.1.10 system, with 10 top (ceiling) speakers [essentially 4 pairs of top speakers – front height, top front, top middle, and top rear – with one HC (height center) and one T (top/VOG)]. Since I am using not two but one subwoofer output, this current 11.1.10 system leaves me with 3 unused Altitude 32 (24 channel) outputs.

1. I understand that generally for 2 row theaters you do not recommend a pair of rear heights, because they are simply too close to the rear surrounds to reasonably differentiate sonically. However, since my ceiling is almost 12’ high (11.93’ high), this does give more room. Since I have the outputs on the Altitude 32 available, do you think (in reviewing the final layout attached) that adding a pair of rear heights will be sonically worthwhile – or is it simply overkill? Possibly not – from the drawing, it looks like you will have quite a bit of difference in perceived height between Rear Surrounds and Rear Heights. Definitiely worth considering.

2. I listen to a lot of 2 channel and some multi-channel music using ROON and Auromatic. I don’t know whether Auro-3D actually makes use of the Top/VOG channel. I also have some 2L blu rays with Auro-3D music tracks as well. I may like to listen to music at the center of the first or second row at times. Do you think there would be any benefit to adding a second Top/VOG channel since I have an unused Altitude 32 output that could be used for that? I'd avoid sending the same signal to two different speakers that are relatively close to each other. You will get comb filtering that will make both of them sound worse. However, you could have both and use different presets to choose either one or the other, depending on where you are sitting.

3. My front three floorstanding Aerial Acoustics 7ts (https://aerialacoustics.com/7t/) be angled at the front row MLP. My experience however is that they sound best angled toward the MLP but just in back of the listener head. Does this make sense? Yes. Also, as these speakers are about 46” high, and I have a 2nd row on a 12” riser, should these speakers be angled upwards a tad so the the sound from the tweeter more directly hits the ears not only for the front row listener but also for the 2nd row listener? Ideally, yes. The Optimizer can do a LOT to clean up phase/timing problems, but it is even better not to have them in the first place.

4. My ceiling speakers will be Triad Rotating Silver/Sat 9 which can be rotated/pointed at the front row MLP. However, my front wide and surround speakers (8) are Aerial Acoustics 7LCR (https://aerialacoustics.com/7lcr/) on wall speakers. Am I correct in assuming (1) that the front wide Aerial Acoustics 7LCR should be mounted on wall at the same height tweeterwise as the front floorstanding Aerial Acoustics 7ts; ideally, yes (2) that the side surround pair for the front row should be mounted on wall 30 cm (12 inches) higher than listener’s ears in the front row; and that the second side surround pair for the second row, and the rear surround speakers (mounted on the back wall/cabinetry) should be mounted the same height as the second side surround pair? With each surround speaker I assume mounted not only to point at the MLP, but also to be angled so that its tweeter fires across the listeners’ ears in both rows. So, yes… but with a "maybe" attached. The main reason for raising the surrounds about 12" or so is to avoid head occlusion from the person sitting next to you. This can be accomplished either by having the speakers a little above everyone's ears (by only as much as necessary to preserve the maximum difference between "around you" and "above you") OR by having them slightly in front of or behind the row of seats. (Or a combination of the two.) Lastly, aiming the best sound that a speaker creates toward the listening area always is important, even if it is not alway easy.

5. Although I’m sure my installer Gerry has ideas on how to mount the Aerial Acoustics 7LCRs so they can be pointed at the correct angles (as they are designed as straight mounted on wall speakers), I am wondering if in your experience there’s anything you recommend in this regard. Everything depends on the details of the speaker in question. For example, some have VESA mounts on the back that make it easy to mount them on a really solid bracket from Chief or someone like that. Then you can just swivel them to where you need them to be. Otherwise, improvise along those lines if you can.


____________________________

As always great and helpful info from Jon at Trinnov.

Note that I use Isoacoustics Gaia II isolation footers under my 3 Aerial Acoustics 7t floorstanders. The screws holding them onto the bottom of the speaker can be adjusted to tilt the speaker back a tad so the tweeter is aimed at the center listeners' ears in both the first row, and the second row on a 12" riser.

So using the Trinnov Altitude 32 (24 channels), I will be doing either a 11.1.12 or 11.1.13 system. With the .1 being 12 21" sealed subwoofers, 6 in front and 6 in back, with the 4 subwoofer amplifiers' outputs being managed by a Q-Sys Core 110f.

The question is whether I should use one or two Top/VOG (Voice of God) speakers, one for each of my two rows of seating? Might this give me any sonic benefit when using DTS:X-Pro or Auro-3D/Auromatic?
Does Auromatic even use the Top/VOG channel for 2 channel music?

Ideas or comments, anyone?
 

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The question is whether I should use one or two Top/VOG (Voice of God) speakers, one for each of my two rows of seating? Might this give me any sonic benefit when using DTS:X-Pro or Auro-3D/Auromatic?
Does Auromatic even use the Top/VOG channel for 2 channel music?

Ideas or comments, anyone?
Since the Silver/Sats from Triad can be angled, the 2nd row won't be as off-axis, compared to a down-firing speaker over the front row. I think you will be Ok with one speaker.

Auro and DTS:X both have a Top/Oh speaker position, and will upmix to that speaker location.
 

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Discussion Starter #145
Since the Silver/Sats from Triad can be angled, the 2nd row won't be as off-axis, compared to a down-firing speaker over the front row. I think you will be Ok with one speaker.

Auro and DTS:X both have a Top/Oh speaker position, and will upmix to that speaker location.
Adam, as usual, I think you are right on. However, being the perfectionist that I am, and as my amplifiers will have more than enough channels (24 total), and as my Trinnov Altitude 32 right now is 24 channels, I think I'll do the dual Top/VOG speaker getting the very best positioning for each row since I listen to a LOT of ROON 2 channel music in Auromatic! If I was adding a lot more expense it would be a different story. So long as you can program music modes for each row which only use one of the Top/VOG speakers. Which you can do!
 

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Discussion Starter #146
Oh Oh!

I made the "mistake" of watching another Trinnov Seminar on "speaker declaration, channel mapping and listening modes".

They discussed how bass from any speaker can be "sent" to another speaker or subwoofer. E.G., top front heights to front subwoofers; top rear heights to rear subwoofers.

My latest plan was to use one output of the Trinnov Altitude 32 (24 channels) for subwoofers. 6 21" sealed in front under screen, 6 21" sealed in 2 stacks at rear hidden by cabinets/components.
Two sub amps with two amp modules each, each module drives 3 subs. So if I use a Q-Sys Core 110f, I'll use one input, and four outputs, and Adam Pelz can do his magic, set individual delays for each set of 3 subwoofers, etc.

On the other hand, the $$ I spend for a Q-Sys Core 110f can just as well be spent to add 8 more channels (more than I would need. HA!) to my Trinnov Altitude 32 ($5100 msrp if I recall correctly for the upgrade). This would give Adam the flexibility to assign bass speaker to speaker or speaker to front or back subs or even left front/right front or back subs (as the back subs are in two rows next to each other I sort of doubt it would make sense to send to only one row)?

On the other hand, having all of the subwoofers function optimized as one gives us similar bass response at each seat. That may well be most important and override other considerations.

Comments, anyone?
 

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Oh Oh!

I made the "mistake" of watching another Trinnov Seminar on "speaker declaration, channel mapping and listening modes".

They discussed how bass from any speaker can be "sent" to another speaker or subwoofer. E.G., top front heights to front subwoofers; top rear heights to rear subwoofers.

My latest plan was to use one output of the Trinnov Altitude 32 (24 channels) for subwoofers. 6 21" sealed in front under screen, 6 21" sealed in 2 stacks at rear hidden by cabinets/components.
Two sub amps with two amp modules each, each module drives 3 subs. So if I use a Q-Sys Core 110f, I'll use one input, and four outputs, and Adam Pelz can do his magic, set individual delays for each set of 3 subwoofers, etc.

On the other hand, the $$ I spend for a Q-Sys Core 110f can just as well be spent to add 8 more channels (more than I would need. HA!) to my Trinnov Altitude 32 ($5100 msrp if I recall correctly for the upgrade). This would give Adam the flexibility to assign bass speaker to speaker or speaker to front or back subs or even left front/right front or back subs (as the back subs are in two rows next to each other I sort of doubt it would make sense to send to only one row)?

On the other hand, having all of the subwoofers function optimized as one gives us similar bass response at each seat. That may well be most important and override other considerations.

Comments, anyone?
Core 110f would be a little less, and I can do the same and more in the QSYS environment. Use the extra i/o's on the Core for your mains or whatever else you want and the flexibility gets better.

That, and we really *don't* want 4 independent subwoofer outputs from the Altitude.
 
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Discussion Starter #148
Core 110f would be a little less, and I can do the same and more in the QSYS environment. Use the extra i/o's on the Core for your mains or whatever else you want and the flexibility gets better.

That, and we really *don't* want 4 independent subwoofer outputs from the Altitude.
Adam, thanks. I appreciate all of your help. My installer Gerry Behm is going to be talking with Gerald Lemay of Quest Acoustic Interiors early t his week and shortly we should be ordering the acoustic treatments. YEA! And eventually we'll get you out here to calibrate all the audio.
 
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Discussion Starter #149
We are getting there - slowly but surely.

My installer Gerry Behm has talked with Gerald LeMay, Quest Acoustical Interiors, and per Gerald's request has been submitting even more additional info and then we will obtain options, recommendations and costs.

Meanwhile, sold my two PS Audio P4 power regenerators, and the ATI 526NC 6 channel amp (that I was originally going to use for a few left over channels, after 2 Trinnov multi-channel amps), so no going back there. Still to go selling my 3 Theta Digital Prometheus monoblocks over on USAudioMart. Already have Trinnov Amplitude 8 and 8m multi-channel amplifiers - getting one more 8.

Upgraded theater system will be 11.12.13 (with the 13 having one Top/VOG channel for each of 2 rows of seating, as I love Auromatic for music, and as I had the extra channel, why not - of course, when Adam setup, he will only use the one channel assigned for each row as he sets up Alt32 memories for music listening in each row).

I am getting a QSC Q-Sys Core 110(f) primarily for bass management. But subs will only use one output from Alt32 into QSC, four outputs from QSC into four sets of 3 21" sealed Seaton subwoofers each. This leaves 3 inputs and 4 outputs of the QSC untouched. Adam says he'll probably use those QSC inputs/outputs for front left and right, possibly front wides or center, as he can do some "funky" stuff with them.

Which begs the question, what "funky" stuff will Adam be doing with the QSCs for non-subwoofer channels? This is new to me! Ash Sharma mentioned long ago how Adam used some of these QSCs with Ash's theater and they just luv them! Is there a benefit to getting more QSCs for other channels - obviously, not for optimization, done by Alt32, but for some other reason?

Also, although my installer has done Crestron, he really likes Savant. Do these remote control systems tie in to the QSC units? Is there a benefit of one vs the other for my theater upgrade and renovation?
My installer has no ego, and I could have Adam do the remote work, or my installer. Initially I was thinking Savant as my understanding is I can use an iPad, get a license for just one room, and keep these costs down. But this is not set in stone. Thoughts, anyone?

Thanks.
 

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We are getting there - slowly but surely.

My installer Gerry Behm has talked with Gerald LeMay, Quest Acoustical Interiors, and per Gerald's request has been submitting even more additional info and then we will obtain options, recommendations and costs.

Meanwhile, sold my two PS Audio P4 power regenerators, and the ATI 526NC 6 channel amp (that I was originally going to use for a few left over channels, after 2 Trinnov multi-channel amps), so no going back there. Still to go selling my 3 Theta Digital Prometheus monoblocks over on USAudioMart. Already have Trinnov Amplitude 8 and 8m multi-channel amplifiers - getting one more 8.

Upgraded theater system will be 11.12.13 (with the 13 having one Top/VOG channel for each of 2 rows of seating, as I love Auromatic for music, and as I had the extra channel, why not - of course, when Adam setup, he will only use the one channel assigned for each row as he sets up Alt32 memories for music listening in each row).

I am getting a QSC Q-Sys Core 110(f) primarily for bass management. But subs will only use one output from Alt32 into QSC, four outputs from QSC into four sets of 3 21" sealed Seaton subwoofers each. This leaves 3 inputs and 4 outputs of the QSC untouched. Adam says he'll probably use those QSC inputs/outputs for front left and right, possibly front wides or center, as he can do some "funky" stuff with them.

Which begs the question, what "funky" stuff will Adam be doing with the QSCs for non-subwoofer channels? This is new to me! Ash Sharma mentioned long ago how Adam used some of these QSCs with Ash's theater and they just luv them! Is there a benefit to getting more QSCs for other channels - obviously, not for optimization, done by Alt32, but for some other reason?

Also, although my installer has done Crestron, he really likes Savant. Do these remote control systems tie in to the QSC units? Is there a benefit of one vs the other for my theater upgrade and renovation?
My installer has no ego, and I could have Adam do the remote work, or my installer. Initially I was thinking Savant as my understanding is I can use an iPad, get a license for just one room, and keep these costs down. But this is not set in stone. Thoughts, anyone?

Thanks.
Couple quick comments on just a few things.

First, I *HATE* the concept of an iPad as the primary control point in a theater. There are no hard buttons, so even to do something as trivial as adjusting volume activates the screen, which you have to look at to find the button. Two things happen..you are immediately pulled out of the show or movie, and your eyes now have to readjust.

I'd be surprised if Savant has already written a module/code to integrate with the QSYS platform. Savant is primarily residential, aside from a few high end private cinemas, I doubt there are many QSYS systems in residential systems. There are GPIO's that I've used to integrate with Control4 and other control systems, but you don't get any status feedback using that method.

Sophisticated private cinemas really benefit from a user interface that can be custom designed. You may have anywhere from 3-10 listening/watching modes in the Altitude32, plus options for Auro/DTS/Dolby. Add in possible lighting scenes, HVAC, screen and projector controls and fixed GUI's become tedious to navigate.
 

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Discussion Starter #151
We are getting there - slowly but surely.

My installer Gerry Behm has talked with Gerald LeMay, Quest Acoustical Interiors, and per Gerald's request has been submitting even more additional info and then we will obtain options, recommendations and costs.

Meanwhile, sold my two PS Audio P4 power regenerators, and the ATI 526NC 6 channel amp (that I was originally going to use for a few left over channels, after 2 Trinnov multi-channel amps), so no going back there. Still to go selling my 3 Theta Digital Prometheus monoblocks over on USAudioMart. Already have Trinnov Amplitude 8 and 8m multi-channel amplifiers - getting one more 8.

Upgraded theater system will be 11.12.13 (with the 13 having one Top/VOG channel for each of 2 rows of seating, as I love Auromatic for music, and as I had the extra channel, why not - of course, when Adam setup, he will only use the one channel assigned for each row as he sets up Alt32 memories for music listening in each row).

I am getting a QSC Q-Sys Core 110(f) primarily for bass management. But subs will only use one output from Alt32 into QSC, four outputs from QSC into four sets of 3 21" sealed Seaton subwoofers each. This leaves 3 inputs and 4 outputs of the QSC untouched. Adam says he'll probably use those QSC inputs/outputs for front left and right, possibly front wides or center, as he can do some "funky" stuff with them.

Which begs the question, what "funky" stuff will Adam be doing with the QSCs for non-subwoofer channels? This is new to me! Ash Sharma mentioned long ago how Adam used some of these QSCs with Ash's theater and they just luv them! Is there a benefit to getting more QSCs for other channels - obviously, not for optimization, done by Alt32, but for some other reason?

Also, although my installer has done Crestron, he really likes Savant. Do these remote control systems tie in to the QSC units? Is there a benefit of one vs the other for my theater upgrade and renovation?
My installer has no ego, and I could have Adam do the remote work, or my installer. Initially I was thinking Savant as my understanding is I can use an iPad, get a license for just one room, and keep these costs down. But this is not set in stone. Thoughts, anyone?

Thanks.
Couple quick comments on just a few things.

First, I *HATE* the concept of an iPad as the primary control point in a theater. There are no hard buttons, so even to do something as trivial as adjusting volume activates the screen, which you have to look at to find the button. Two things happen..you are immediately pulled out of the show or movie, and your eyes now have to readjust.

I'd be surprised if Savant has already written a module/code to integrate with the QSYS platform. Savant is primarily residential, aside from a few high end private cinemas, I doubt there are many QSYS systems in residential systems. There are GPIO's that I've used to integrate with Control4 and other control systems, but you don't get any status feedback using that method.

Sophisticated private cinemas really benefit from a user interface that can be custom designed. You may have anywhere from 3-10 listening/watching modes in the Altitude32, plus options for Auro/DTS/Dolby. Add in possible lighting scenes, HVAC, screen and projector controls and fixed GUI's become tedious to navigate.
Thanks Adam. Frankly, its me, not my installer. My theater upgrade & renovation keeps growing. In the past, I've done inexpensive remote control stuff, like Universal and more recently Logitech Harmony, that I can do myself. And my installer simply recommended Savant knowing I wanted something less expensive as he told me really do I want to continue using all those remotes. HA!

I've been really thinking about this. My theater upgrade & renovation expense keeps on mounting upwards (my fault - need to totally quit AVS Forum. HA!). For one thing, once I got the Alt32, I started using my iPhone X as a remote, and its screen lighting up doesn't really bother me (to each their own). I have an iPad Pro 12.9", too big to use as a remote - but I can get an inexpensive iPad Mini. That will really be fine for me. Though I appreciate the more traditionalist approach with a hard remote. Plus now my Trinnov amps auto turn on and off from standby, Alt32 and Lumagen Radiance Pro and Stewart Vistascope screen and turn on settings can all be programmed, and we are putting in new lighting which also will be on my iPhone/iPad Mini. Will it be as elaborate as what Adam can do at higher cost - NO - but it will be fine for me - at some point one has to set limits on what one can afford to spend. So far I've been doing a terrible job at that! HA! And my installer does both Savant and Crestron and we had yet to make a firm decision which way to go. I've talked to Ash, who has multiple QSC Q-Sys units, etc and Adam did a phenomenal job, nothing but total praise! Like anything else, every extra percent of perfection costs more $$$.

As an aside, the other day I talked to a longtime audio friend, Rob in Newport Beach, who has a Datasat 7.x.4 setup, who raved about how way better the sonics were after Adam did his calibration magic!
 

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We have several dedicated iPads for control in our home and frankly rarely use them. Everything is now controllable with our iPhones including the theater (which is mostly automated anyway). For the occasional volume control change it is not that bright. SJ
 
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