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This is something that makes even less sense on the surface than the pre/pro vs. receiver dilermma.

I can't name any receivers with class D amps, though there may be a few.

Not sure why, though possibly because of the care needed to design and execute to prevent noise issues.
There is a few out there with class D...I think Pioneer has used them in their higher end AVR's for years now

Warren
 

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@jefny yes the x3600/3700 and cousins marantz sr6013/6014/6015 have 2 zones and independent hdmi outputs for those 2 zones. I believe it will still downmix the lowest resolution so if you have a 4k and 1080p sources, it will display 1080p. Look at the manual though to confirm.

The bigger brothers x4500/4700/6500/6700 and Big Papa x8500 plus cousins sr7012/7013/7015 and sr8012 have 3 zone capabilities.
 

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The x3700h allows shutting down of the amps.
Is this function enhanced over what it used to be?

In the past activating this only removed signal from the power amp inputs, whereas removing voltage from the amps' supply rails is needed to eliminate the significant idle power consumption, which is on the order of tens of W.
 

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Is this function enhanced over what it used to be?

In the past activating this only removed signal from the power amp inputs, whereas removing voltage from the amps' supply rails is needed to eliminate the significant idle power consumption, which is on the order of tens of W.
Yes, the new generation of Denon receivers (3700-6700) allow for actual pre-amp mode where the amps are no longer active.
 

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I thought they stopped; but if not, that's still just one major mfgr .
They still have class D amps.....nothing has changed in their higher end units in the last decade in that regard
They have always been the only " major" manufacturer of AVR's that has used class D amps


I do think a couple of the boutique manufacturers...Arcam..?? etc may also use them

Warren
 

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Yes, the new generation of Denon receivers (3700-6700) allow for actual pre-amp mode where the amps are no longer active.
Still probably better over all to buy a pre amp with none of the amp heat and circuitry in the same box

The Marantz 770X can be had for less than 2K...and for $1500 as a refurb fromA4L
This option also gives you XLR outputs

Warren
 
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Yes, the new generation of Denon receivers (3700-6700) allow for actual pre-amp mode where the amps are no longer active.
Are you sure?

Because I believe that's the same description as they used before; it's not necessarily inaccurate to say an idling amp is inactive.


I do think a couple of the boutique manufacturers...Arcam..?? etc may also use them
If you're talking about their current receivers, they're not class D.
 

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Are you sure?

Because I believe that's the same description as they used before; it's not necessarily inaccurate to say an idling amp is inactive.

(snip)
I don't own a 2020 3700 or higher.

However, see pages 63 and 217 of the downloadable manual.

It appears to be all or nothing on the 3700. It's not possible to turn off a subset of the amps.

I doubt that an amp is considered as "idling" when it is active but has no load.
 

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Still probably better over all to buy a pre amp with none of the amp heat and circuitry in the same box

The Marantz 770X can be had for less than 2K...and for $1500 as a refurb fromA4L
This option also gives you XLR outputs

Warren
Except the Marantz 770X has far worse performance, including a strong roll-off above 10kHz. I have (had) a Marantz SR7012. There is no heat from the amps in pre-amp mode.

Are you sure?

Because I believe that's the same description as they used before; it's not necessarily inaccurate to say an idling amp is inactive.
Full pre-amp mode disengages the amplifiers. They are not in the circuit (as indicated by the much cleaner S/N in pre-amp mode).
 

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Except the Marantz 770X has far worse performance, including a strong roll-off above 10kHz. I have (had) a Marantz SR7012. There is no heat from the amps in pre-amp mode.



Full pre-amp mode disengages the amplifiers. They are not in the circuit (as indicated by the much cleaner S/N in pre-amp mode).
Are you sure about that?
I have seen the opposite
Never read that about the Marantz 770X and always thought it optimum if you could separate the pre amp section from the amp/power supply section

Below is a blurb from Audioholics when testing the Marantz 8015 receiver and the effect they found

"We had a few criticisms noted in that review that the engineers at Marantz took seriously enough to address in that model’s successor: the SR8015. Most notable was the preamp output rise in distortion when the unused power amps clipped above a 1.4Vrms input voltage signal. Note, this is a problem that isn't unique to Marantz, since most AVR's we've measured produce similar results."



Warren
 

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Are you sure about that?
I have seen the opposite
Never read that about the Marantz 770X and always thought it optimum if you could separate the pre amp section from the amp/power supply section

Below is a blurb from Audioholics when testing the Marantz 8015 receiver and the effect they found

"We had a few criticisms noted in that review that the engineers at Marantz took seriously enough to address in that model’s successor: the SR8015. Most notable was the preamp output rise in distortion when the unused power amps clipped above a 1.4Vrms input voltage signal. Note, this is a problem that isn't unique to Marantz, since most AVR's we've measured produce similar results."

Warren
What exactly are you asking? The previous models did not fully bypass the amps in pre-amp mode, the current models now so so. As I pointed out above.
 

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What exactly are you asking? The previous models did not fully bypass the amps in pre-amp mode, the current models now so so. As I pointed out above.
Sorry..I thought I was clear in my question
I havent seen anything that said the Marantz 770X performed worse than the Marantz AVr's

Again..besides the possibility of different components, I always thought it provided a benefit to have the amp/power section separated from the pre-amp portion

Then ofcourse there is the advantage of XLR connections

Warren
 

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Sorry..I thought I was clear in my question
I havent seen anything that said the Marantz 770X performed worse than the Marantz AVr's

Again..besides the possibility of different components, I always thought it provided a benefit to have the amp/power section separated from the pre-amp portion

Then ofcourse there is the advantage of XLR connections

Warren
We were discussing Denon AVRs, which do perform better than the Marantz AVRs and Pre-Pros. My SR7012 (and all other models except for the 8015) drop like a cliff above 10kHz and are far noisier than the Denon models. This isn't conjecture, but measured fact.

If the amps in the AVR are removed from the circuit and un powered, they aren't hurting anything. 🙂

Given that the XLR outputs are derived from the unbalanced signal in the Marantz (and most other budget Pre-Pros), the XLR outputs can actually be noisier than the unbalanced outputs. The Anthem AVM60 is guilty of this.
 

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We were discussing Denon AVRs, which do perform better than the Marantz AVRs and Pre-Pros. My SR7012 (and all other models except for the 8015) drop like a cliff above 10kHz and are far noisier than the Denon models. This isn't conjecture, but measured fact.

If the amps in the AVR are removed from the circuit and un powered, they aren't hurting anything. 🙂

Given that the XLR outputs are derived from the unbalanced signal in the Marantz (and most other budget Pre-Pros), the XLR outputs can actually be noisier than the unbalanced outputs. The Anthem AVM60 is guilty of this.
Actually I was replying to the original poster, in context, about budget pre pro and what options he should consider

Here is what you posted.as compared to the Marantz AVR

"Except the Marantz 770X has far worse performance, including a strong roll-off above 10kHz. I have (had) a Marantz SR7012. There is no heat from the amps in pre-amp mode. "

You do realize that the " no heat" comment doesnt really prove anything right?. It also seems to against what Audioholics posted

Again...I am asking you to show the measured facts that you posted...I have heard of no such thing...specifically since the Marantz models are " supposed to " perform better than the Denon models and are priced accordingly...with the 880X being their flagship product

I am going to disagree with the internal amps not causing some type of interference as well...but again if you have the proof that is fine since I have seen something different

You last statement is an unproven supposition

What is absolutely proven is that XLR connections are better specifically for longer runs

Warren
 

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We were discussing Denon AVRs, which do perform better than the Marantz AVRs and Pre-Pros. My SR7012 (and all other models except for the 8015) drop like a cliff above 10kHz and are far noisier than the Denon models. This isn't conjecture, but measured fact.

If the amps in the AVR are removed from the circuit and un powered, they aren't hurting anything. 🙂

Given that the XLR outputs are derived from the unbalanced signal in the Marantz (and most other budget Pre-Pros), the XLR outputs can actually be noisier than the unbalanced outputs. The Anthem AVM60 is guilty of this.
Actually little more information from D&M on this

The preamp mode was only available in 2020 on the Denon X series models( and coorfinating Marantz models

Previously only available on the Denon X8500H before then

So..I am still standing..if you want a low cost preamp...to run with last years Marantz 7705
XLR connections, multi channel in and absolutely no circuit there to interfere with the preamp section

Warren
 

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I think we are talking past each other, so I'll try to be more precise in my wording.

"Except the Marantz 770X has far worse performance, including a strong roll-off above 10kHz. I have (had) a Marantz SR7012.
I was comparing the Marantz 770X to recent Denon models. This is measured fact. I'm far from an ASR cult member, but Amir's measurements of several Marantz and Denon models clearly show this to be the case. If you want proof, go there. Once I had swapped out my Denon AVR-4810 for the SR7012, I began to notice that there was some "air" lacking in the music and there was definitely a bit more background noise from the speakers (hiss). I observed these deficiencies long before I even knew ASR existed.

There is no heat from the amps in pre-amp mode. "

You do realize that the " no heat" comment doesnt really prove anything right?. It also seems to against what Audioholics posted
You misunderstood that my no heat from the amps in pre-amp mode was referring to my SR7012; instead it was referring to the current Denon models -- this is now the third or fourth time I have pointed this out. ASR measurements clearly show that the pre-amp mode in current Denon models actually does take the amps out of the circuit.

Again...I am asking you to show the measured facts that you posted...I have heard of no such thing...specifically since the Marantz models are " supposed to " perform better than the Denon models and are priced accordingly...with the 880X being their flagship product
You demand proof of my statements and then say "Marantz models are supposed to perform better..."? Something, something, glass houses... The proof is at ASR. Go review the measurements -- the HDAM circuits add a ton of noise and distortion and dramatically roll-off the frequency response above 10 kHz. In every Marantz model, including the 8805.

Note that the new SR8015 is a significant step forward for Marantz in reducing these problems; however, they were not fixed on the SR7015 or below models, nor the 7706, nor the 8805 (obviously).

I am going to disagree with the internal amps not causing some type of interference as well...but again if you have the proof that is fine since I have seen something different
Ok, how about YOU show the proof that you have seen elsewhere? As pointed out above, the data are at ASR for anyone to look at.

You last statement is an unproven supposition

What is absolutely proven is that XLR connections are better specifically for longer runs

Warren
Asking me to prove that is like asking me to prove 2+2 = 4. All of the D&M products are unbalanced internally. Period. End of stop. They are not truly balanced circuits -- therefore, the balanced signal has to come from somewhere, and where it comes from is an amplifier feeding the XLR outputs. These circuits always add noise and distortion -- whether or not this is audible isn't the point. The point is that assuming the XLR outputs is automatically better is a bad assumption.

Sure, balanced signal is better over long runs. How is that relevant to 99.9% of home theater setups?

The overall feeling I get from your responses is that I need to provide proof for anything I say that bucks the audiophile tropes/rules of thumb that you have heard. Where is the proof for these rules of thumb?
 

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The preamp mode was only available in 2020 on the Denon X series models( and coorfinating Marantz models
I have said this in this thread multiple times already.

So..I am still standing..if you want a low cost preamp...to run with last years Marantz 7705
XLR connections, multi channel in and absolutely no circuit there to interfere with the preamp section
So, instead of the (no) effect of amps that are completely taken out of the circuit, you choose deliberate and nasty distortion/noise/frequency roll-off introduced by the HDAM circuits? I mean, that's your choice, but don't act like they have better overall performance. If I had known what I learned only after the purchase, I would not have bought an SR7012.
 

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Per below, I still haven't seen anything that definitively indicates that the amps' are fully disengaged i.e. voltage is disconnected from the supply rails.

The reason I'm persisting in this is that I believe it would take a high power switch and associated control circuitry to implement, which would entail a lot more cost than just shutting down the signal inputs.


However, see pages 63 and 217 of the downloadable manual.
P. 63 says "This stops operation of the internal power amplifier of this unit, reducing interference in the pre amplifier created by the power amplifier."

This is ambiguous; the amp can be considered non-operating if it's not receiving and amplifying signal.

P. 63 links to p. 207, not 217, but neither adds any relevant info.


ASR measurements clearly show that the pre-amp mode in current Denon models actually does take the amps out of the circuit.
What measurements are those?

If distortion, that doesn't necessarily mean they're disconnecting the PS rails.


I doubt that an amp is considered as "idling" when it is active but has no load.
It most certainly is.

What else could it be?
 

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I think we are talking past each other, so I'll try to be more precise in my wording.



I was comparing the Marantz 770X to recent Denon models. This is measured fact. I'm far from an ASR cult member, but Amir's measurements of several Marantz and Denon models clearly show this to be the case. If you want proof, go there. Once I had swapped out my Denon AVR-4810 for the SR7012, I began to notice that there was some "air" lacking in the music and there was definitely a bit more background noise from the speakers (hiss). I observed these deficiencies long before I even knew ASR existed.
You compare two models that are a decade apart as a litmus test?

If we use that I can tell you that I notice hiss( comparatively) from a higher than optimum noise floor in a X3500 I have in a secondary room

Does that really mean anything other I hear some hiss if I really listen?


You misunderstood that my no heat from the amps in pre-amp mode was referring to my SR7012; instead it was referring to the current Denon models -- this is now the third or fourth time I have pointed this out. ASR measurements clearly show that the pre-amp mode in current Denon models actually does take the amps out of the circuit.
That is what you posted intially...I think you should reread what you posted
You specifically mentioned no heat from a 7012
But again..not a scientific measurement that really means anything...you do realize that right?


You demand proof of my statements and then say "Marantz models are supposed to perform better..."? Something, something, glass houses... The proof is at ASR. Go review the measurements -- the HDAM circuits add a ton of noise and distortion and dramatically roll-off the frequency response above 10 kHz. In every Marantz model, including the 8805.

Note that the new SR8015 is a significant step forward for Marantz in reducing these problems; however, they were not fixed on the SR7015 or below models, nor the 7706, nor the 8805 (obviously).
Per D&M , Marantz are supposed to be superior models
I never said that was my opinion...frankly I think the difference is negligible
This coming from a person who has an Marantz 8802, Denon X7200 and a Denon X3500 connected in systems in my home right now
Again I have not seen these measurements that you speak about

Per the Audioholics link I posted the Denon models ( with amps ) had the same issues
Now..I have not seen the test of the 2020 models to prove that this has changed
I see that the D&M representative said it changed...but no actual reviews to speak that it definitely has


Ok, how about YOU show the proof that you have seen elsewhere? As pointed out above, the data are at ASR for anyone to look at.
Already linked the Audioholics info and that speaks to something different than what you posted


Asking me to prove that is like asking me to prove 2+2 = 4. All of the D&M products are unbalanced internally. Period. End of stop. They are not truly balanced circuits -- therefore, the balanced signal has to come from somewhere, and where it comes from is an amplifier feeding the XLR outputs. These circuits always add noise and distortion -- whether or not this is audible isn't the point. The point is that assuming the XLR outputs is automatically better is a bad assumption.

Sure, balanced signal is better over long runs. How is that relevant to 99.9% of home theater setups?
That what my point why would you want it coming from something with an internal amp( or any other unneeded circuitry)?...ie...buy a Pre/pro
As far as balanced signal over long runs not being beneficial to 99% of home theater setups...??
I have zero actual stats on what 99.9% on the breakdown of 99.9% home theater setups

Perhaps you have those stats?

I do know it benefits me, as my amp that is remote and I know a few other people that have similar setups
I have no verifiable stats on how many have setup like myself and others I know

The overall feeling I get from your responses is that I need to provide proof for anything I say that bucks the audiophile tropes/rules of thumb that you have heard. Where is the proof for these rules of thumb?
You overall feeling is an assumption then
I have seen that data from professionals that disagrees with yous...and I am asking you
Then there is the fact you seem to have misspoken on models...not sure where the 7012 fits in

Warren
 
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