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I have said this in this thread multiple times already.



So, instead of the (no) effect of amps that are completely taken out of the circuit, you choose deliberate and nasty distortion/noise/frequency roll-off introduced by the HDAM circuits? I mean, that's your choice, but don't act like they have better overall performance. If I had known what I learned only after the purchase, I would not have bought an SR7012.
You are making assumptions
There is nothing that states that it takes it out the circuit...the D&M rep says that ...but I need third party measurements.
D&M can( and will) say a lot

It seems you believe D&M when they say the amps are completely out of the circuit but you dont believe them when they talk about the superiority of the Marantz HDAM circuits?

Warren
 

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(snip)

P. 63 links to p. 207, not 217, but neither adds any relevant info.

(as regards "idling" with no load)

It most certainly is.

What else could it be?
From page 217:
3119855


If an amp is not connected to a load, I presume that its output will still have voltage swings if driven.

It's possible that Denon simply kills the input to the amps, and leaves them with DC voltage applied. The current may be minimal with aclass A/B amp, and the resulting shot noise could be trivial.

Not sure why I bothered replying. I participate in discussions, but not arguments.
 

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I can't name any receivers with class D amps, though there may be a few.
Responding a bit late, but the 2020 NAD T778 uses Hybrid Digital amplifier technology. According to the company, this relies on Hypex class-D modules. The previous (but still current) T777 used a classic toroidal power supply.

It's not especially cheap, at $3K, but it's not especially expensive either for what it is.
 

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Per below, I still haven't seen anything that definitively indicates that the amps' are fully disengaged i.e. voltage is disconnected from the supply rails.
The amps are out of the audio circuit, proven by lower noise+distortion in pre-amp mode. Older D&M products had poor line-out performance because the internal amps were actually clipping and that leaked into the analog out. Given that the performance is substantially better in pre-amp mode, that would strongly imply that the amps are no longer being fed an input signal. Whether or not the amps are "idling" or fully powered down, I do not know.
 

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You compare two models that are a decade apart as a litmus test?

If we use that I can tell you that I notice hiss( comparatively) from a higher than optimum noise floor in a X3500 I have in a secondary room

Does that really mean anything other I hear some hiss if I really listen?
It means that the SR7012 is noisier than my old Denon 4810. Why are you moving the goal posts?

That is what you posted intially...I think you should reread what you posted
You specifically mentioned no heat from a 7012
But again..not a scientific measurement that really means anything...you do realize that right?
Either A) English is not your first language, in which case let me know and I'll try to be more clear; B) your reading comprehension is terrible and I can't help you; or C) you are deliberately "misunderstanding" my posts. I'm leaning towards C at this point.

I never said no heat from a 7012 in pre-amp mode. I have corrected this misunderstanding on your part two or three times now, I'm over it.

Per D&M , Marantz are supposed to be superior models
I never said that was my opinion...frankly I think the difference is negligible
This coming from a person who has an Marantz 8802, Denon X7200 and a Denon X3500 connected in systems in my home right now
Again I have not seen these measurements that you speak about
Then why did you say it? Why are you sitting here repeatedly posting from a basis of ignorance instead of going to ASR and reviewing the measurements yourself?

Per the Audioholics link I posted the Denon models ( with amps ) had the same issues
Now..I have not seen the test of the 2020 models to prove that this has changed
I see that the D&M representative said it changed...but no actual reviews to speak that it definitely has
So, again you are speaking from a place of ignorance. As above, you haven't seen tests because you apparently refuse to go to ASR and review them? Why is that?

That what my point why would you want it coming from something with an internal amp( or any other unneeded circuitry)?...ie...buy a Pre/pro
As far as balanced signal over long runs not being beneficial to 99% of home theater setups...??
I have zero actual stats on what 99.9% on the breakdown of 99.9% home theater setups

Perhaps you have those stats?
As I mentioned before, you feel OK posting blatant generalizations but I need to provide proof when I counter. It goes both ways. You can go to ASR and see how the 2020 Denons are very high performers in pre-amp mode, better than many pre-pros, including the Marantz models. There is the proof you keep asking for.

As for balanced signal, since you are claiming it is always better, YOU provide stats on noise reduction over the typical 3-6' of connections between the processor and amplifiers used in the vast majority of HT setups.

I do know it benefits me, as my amp that is remote and I know a few other people that have similar setups
I have no verifiable stats on how many have setup like myself and others I know
So you have no stats or measurements but "know" that it benefits you...

You overall feeling is an assumption then
I have seen that data from professionals that disagrees with yous...and I am asking you
Then there is the fact you seem to have misspoken on models...not sure where the 7012 fits in
I'm the only one providing data. You haven't provided a single piece. It's clear there is no point in bothering to converse with you.

You are making assumptions
There is nothing that states that it takes it out the circuit...the D&M rep says that ...but I need third party measurements.
D&M can( and will) say a lot

It seems you believe D&M when they say the amps are completely out of the circuit but you dont believe them when they talk about the superiority of the Marantz HDAM circuits?
I'm not believing Denon, I'm looking at actual 3rd party measurements. Which you have been provided and continue to ignore. Again, why?


Here is a review of the Marantz 8802..that seems to debunk the whole "frequency rolloff" hearsay of Marantz products
Marantz AV8802 Surround Processor Review | Sound & Vision (soundandvision.com)
Your own link proves my point, lol! The 8802 is 3.3dB down at 20 kHz and drops like a stone above (even before) 10 kHz. Now I know you're just trolling.

3120139
 

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Good to know, thanks.

Responding a bit late, but the 2020 NAD T778 uses Hybrid Digital amplifier technology. According to the company, this relies on Hypex class-D modules. The previous (but still current) T777 used a classic toroidal power supply.
 

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For the umpteenth time, that doesn't mean the amps are fully powered down.

There's a simple way to determine what preamp mode is really doing; check no-signal power consumption with a Kill A Watt in normal and preamp mode.

If the amps are truly powered down, idle power consumption of the receiver should be reduced by about 35 to 70 W.


From page 217:
View attachment 3119855

If an amp is not connected to a load, I presume that its output will still have voltage swings if driven.

It's possible that Denon simply kills the input to the amps, and leaves them with DC voltage applied. The current may be minimal with aclass A/B amp, and the resulting shot noise could be trivial.

Not sure why I bothered replying. I participate in discussions, but not arguments.
 

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My only concern with the 3700h is that the pre amp output is only 1.4 volts and my main amp requires 2.0 volts. What would be the repercussions of this? if that will not be an issue, then the 3700h is my next pre amp. Hopefully one of the gurus on this thread can give me some advice. Y’all know way more about this than me. Lol. Thanks in advance.
Jerry
 

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For the umpteenth time, that doesn't mean the amps are fully powered down.

There's a simple way to determine what preamp mode is really doing; check no-signal power consumption with a Kill A Watt in normal and preamp mode.

If the amps are truly powered down, idle power consumption of the receiver should be reduced by about 35 to 70 W.
As stated in an earlier post my interest in the Denon X3700 is to use it as a pre-amp for my 7.2 setup (I have an Outlaw 770 amp which is 200 watts X 7 plus 2 powered SVS subs. I have not considered atmos). Can't the question of what is going on with the Denon amps when it is placed in pre-amp mode be definitively answered by Denon support or sales?

I just thought of an additional question. Suppose I do want to add 2 additional speakers for atmos. Would I then have to add a 2 channel amp as it appears I cannot use just 2 of the Denon built in amps as everything is either used or bypassed? Thanks in advance for any responses.

John
 

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That is correct It is all or nothing with the amps. You would need a second amp to power those atmos speakers.
 

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Can't the question of what is going on with the Denon amps when it is placed in pre-amp mode be definitively answered by Denon support or sales?

Maybe, maybe not; depending on how the question is phrased.

If asked what preamp mode means and the answer includes disconnecting the PS voltage, I'd trust it.

If asked if it means that the amps are disconnected/not utilized and they say yes, I wouldn't, because as I've said, that can mean many different things.
 

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Maybe, maybe not; depending on how the question is phrased.

If asked what preamp mode means and the answer includes disconnecting the PS voltage, I'd trust it.

If asked if it means that the amps are disconnected/not utilized and they say yes, I wouldn't, because as I've said, that can mean many different things.
Thanks for your response. In trying to figure out what is happening with the Denon X3700H when its amps are by-passed when used as a pre-amp it got me to wondering about my current Marantz (SR5005) which I purchased 10 years ago to use as a pre-amp with my 770 Outlaw amp. When I set it up the manual only said to run RCA cables from the Marantz to the amp and to not use the speaker outputs of the Marantz. There were no additional setup instructions telling the receiver that you are bypassing its amps. Maybe I should experiment by switching one of the speaker outputs from the Outlaw amp to that of the Marantz to see if an audio signal is live.

My reason for updating is not only the advances made over the last 10 years but the fact that the Marantz has only 1 hdmi out while I have two video hookups-a plasma TV and an overhead projector. The Denon will be able to send out video signals to both.

John
 

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Thanks for your response. In trying to figure out what is happening with the Denon X3700H when its amps are by-passed when used as a pre-amp it got me to wondering about my current Marantz (SR5005) which I purchased 10 years ago to use as a pre-amp with my 770 Outlaw amp. When I set it up the manual only said to run RCA cables from the Marantz to the amp and to not use the speaker outputs of the Marantz. There were no additional setup instructions telling the receiver that you are bypassing its amps. Maybe I should experiment by switching one of the speaker outputs from the Outlaw amp to that of the Marantz to see if an audio signal is live.

My reason for updating is not only the advances made over the last 10 years but the fact that the Marantz has only 1 hdmi out while I have two video hookups-a plasma TV and an overhead projector. The Denon will be able to send out video signals to both.

John
You should be asking in the Denon Owner's thread about whether the amps are disengaged. Here's one post from someone reporting much lower temps and use wattage when in pre-amp mode: "OFFICIAL" 2020 Denon AVR Owner's Thread...

Your Marantz SR5005 does NOT disengage the amps. Signal is live at speaker posts and RCA outputs at all times.
 
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At this point I'm inclined to believe that the power amps are being fully shut down.

65W isn't exemplary power efficiency for a pre/pro, but it seems likely that it would be a lot higher if idle power for 9 amp ch were included.

The lowest idle power per ch I've ever seen was 4W for a high end class D module, with 7W being more typical, so that would be 63W right there.


The full pre-amp disconnected mode eliminates the heat issue. My 4700H was running very hot at 57 Celsius at the top cover. In the full pre-amp disconnect mode the top cover is barely warm now. The power consumption has also reduced down to around 65W.
What was the power consumption before that?
Around 700W give or take. it seems that in the full pre-amp disconnect mode 4700H power consumption equals to power consumption no-sound as per the table below. so it does run pretty cool.

Power Consumption in W710
Power Consumption No-Sound (ECO On / Off) in W65 W / 110 W
 

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It means that the SR7012 is noisier than my old Denon 4810. Why are you moving the goal posts?



Either A) English is not your first language, in which case let me know and I'll try to be more clear; B) your reading comprehension is terrible and I can't help you; or C) you are deliberately "misunderstanding" my posts. I'm leaning towards C at this point.

I never said no heat from a 7012 in pre-amp mode. I have corrected this misunderstanding on your part two or three times now, I'm over it.



Then why did you say it? Why are you sitting here repeatedly posting from a basis of ignorance instead of going to ASR and reviewing the measurements yourself?



So, again you are speaking from a place of ignorance. As above, you haven't seen tests because you apparently refuse to go to ASR and review them? Why is that?



As I mentioned before, you feel OK posting blatant generalizations but I need to provide proof when I counter. It goes both ways. You can go to ASR and see how the 2020 Denons are very high performers in pre-amp mode, better than many pre-pros, including the Marantz models. There is the proof you keep asking for.

As for balanced signal, since you are claiming it is always better, YOU provide stats on noise reduction over the typical 3-6' of connections between the processor and amplifiers used in the vast majority of HT setups.



So you have no stats or measurements but "know" that it benefits you...



I'm the only one providing data. You haven't provided a single piece. It's clear there is no point in bothering to converse with you.



I'm not believing Denon, I'm looking at actual 3rd party measurements. Which you have been provided and continue to ignore. Again, why?




Your own link proves my point, lol! The 8802 is 3.3dB down at 20 kHz and drops like a stone above (even before) 10 kHz. Now I know you're just trolling.

View attachment 3120139
I am not even going to try to attempt to unpack all that
To your point though
No..you havent provided any information to back up anything you have " thought"
Including your statement of what 99.9% of people have in their home A/V set up

I really would like to have your source for that data

English is my first language btw....was I clear in my last sentence in what I was asking for?

Warren
 

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Discussion Starter · #100 ·
So if I go with the Denon option, which is a better value: a refurb 4700 at $1500, or a new 3700 at $1300?
Decisions, decisions. At full retail I don't think the 4700 offers enough benefit over the 3700 to be worth it; I'd just go 3700. But at just $200 more for a refurb w/ warranty 4700... that's a tough call. Any thoughts? Which way would you go?
Also I'm still not clear on if the Marantz SR-x015 series AVRs include the "pre-amp mode" or not. Is it exclusive to the 2020 Denons?
 
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