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Def don't have atsc 3.0, but I rarely ever received WNYO when it was on RF16. Buffalo is actually slightly east of me across the lake so there shouldn't be any Pearson issues for those. It's basically due west of me.

This is me to WKBW in Colden, with the red dot Pearson. I don't think I should be affected for the Buf stations. Do airports have that much impact to affect signals coming from other directions? I would think Hamilton stations is plausible airport interference, but it shouldn't give me too much grief for the Buffalo ones?

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It depends on what route pilots are using to arrive at the airport. I live ~20mi to the Niagara Falls ARS and all of my weak stations break up whenever a plane flies near my house. One of their flight patterns must include my house. This is unfortunately the nature of ATSC 1.0 that was made in the mid 1990s.
 

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I thought I'd add that since you're located in Toronto, you might be surrounded by high rise buildings and other "solid" structures. They could be reflecting TV signals around your home that would cause multipath problems. It only takes one errant reflection off a nearby structure to mess with a TV signal. The Toronto signals at your place are so strong, they could overcome most multipath issues. The weak Buffalo signals on the other hand, not so much.
Yes, I think that's what is causing intermittent havoc especially with the Hamilton stations. There are condos and offices a mile behind me, I wouldn't be surprised if that's why CHCH and CITS goes 3/4 bars out of 5 then drop to no signal, and back, quite intermittently. Probably getting a lot of reflection right back off those high rises.

It depends on what route pilots are using to arrive at the airport. I live ~20mi to the Niagara Falls ARS and all of my weak stations break up whenever a plane flies near my house. One of their flight patterns must include my house. This is unfortunately the nature of ATSC 1.0 that was made in the mid 1990s.
This is fascinating to me that it matters so much in the vast expanse of sky - a main flightpath for landing at Pearson is just north of me, and there's planes here all the time.



Note, completely unrelated to this, WGRZ came back in today (so of course WIVB dropped because I can never have both working at the same time), and I see my tv added the new NBC subchannel today, 2.5 Twist. Not unlike most subchannels, it isn't something I'd ever watch, but I just noticed it.
 

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I will try to get you the size of the rear reflector of the antenna. It may be ok. WGRZ has been somewhat problematic this spring. I wrote to them to see if they were working on their antenna. No response. It was always the strongest of the southtown signals here. Not anymore
WGRZ has been terrible this week. Been getting WNLO/WIVB and WKBW quite well with the warm weather, even mostly in the day time.
But WGRZ used to be fine at all hours, now it's barely coming in at all

Interesting thing also, was watching ion 51.1 and the picture started going out and I was confused because that's usually a 100% of the time channel, and then I heard the plane going over because I had the window open with all this unseasonably warm weather were having, so to the previous comments about flight path. Yep for sure an issue
 

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Interesting thing also, was watching ion 51.1 and the picture started going out and I was confused because that's usually a 100% of the time channel, and then I heard the plane going over because I had the window open with all this unseasonably warm weather were having, so to the previous comments about flight path. Yep for sure an issue
I know, this weather has been great. The signal breaking up doesn’t surprise me. This type of interference shouldn’t be an issue with ATSC 3.0 - I was watching a 3.0 channel while a plane was overhead. No issues.
 
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If anyone is interested, right now you can pick up Rochester stations with a paper clip and Syracuse stations with a coat hanger. I’ve been getting Syracuse stations all morning, and even got to watch their 3.0 lighthouse. Haven’t seen Tropo this large in a while. Fox68 has been 37dB for the past 4 hours, like I’m right next to the tower. Looking at the rabbitears dxing map may surprise you.

Oh, and still no CHCJ.
 

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If anyone is interested, right now you can pick up Rochester stations with a paper clip and Syracuse stations with a coat hanger. I’ve been getting Syracuse stations all morning, and even got to watch their 3.0 lighthouse. Haven’t seen Tropo this large in a while. Fox68 has been 37dB for the past 4 hours, like I’m right next to the tower. Looking at the rabbitears dxing map may surprise you.

Oh, and still no CHCJ.
Did you log anything new this morning? :cool:
 

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Did you log anything new this morning? :cool:
I received every major affiliate from Syracuse at very high levels, on the same RF channels as strong Canadian stations that I’m in the FCC contour for. This was the first time for most of the affiliates. It was especially nice to test their ATSC 3.0 lighthouse.
 

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Dumb Canadian here again.

I have a couple questions regarding subchannels and bandwidth and how it works in the USA since none of our networks have sub channels.

With the repack and WNYO moving to atsc3, we now have both RF32 and RF36 with multiple HD channels.

It was my loose understanding that the "flagship" main network is in HD and the 'leftover' bandwidth was allocated to the subs, usually in inglorious 480i. But with both WIVB 4-1 and WNLO 23-1 being present in 720p on 36, and WUTV 29-1 and WNYO 49-1 on 32, it's clearly not a technical limitation. There are able to be multiple HD channels on one RF channel.

If the bandwidth/capability is there, why do they broadcast the sub channels in Potato-Vision? I was just watching How I Met Your Mother on Laff, and not only is it low res which I can live with if it was just that alone, but the bitrate seems terrible. The picture fluctuates and pixelated as to be unwatchable. With a 55 inch tv it's incredibly noticeable and as such I find I can't even watch the sub channels without getting a headache. What restrictions and limitations are there preventing them to broadcast some of these networks in a more watchable resolution? Some of the sub channels have decent enough content I may watch, but my eyes disagree.

Second question. A lot of the sub channels are duplicated now. I understand as explained earlier in this thread that it's due to the buyout of ion tv and shutting down their own sub channels and replacing them with scripps own stuff. CourtTV is on 4 and 51, and Laff, QVC, HSN etc are on 7 and 51.

Are there any plans or news for a subchannel reshuffle in the coming months as the contracts expire, and the introduction of new content, or will these duplications with WPXJ likely continue?
 

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Their are 2 new sub channels launching on July 1 on ION stations called True/Real and Defy, and they will replace the Home shopping channels. Also NEWSY will launch on WKBW in October. I suspect the duplicates will be dropped from WKBW and WIVB will lose Court TV and likely replaced with something else. I think OAN is also going OTA . Also CHEX in Peterborough will have 2 subs soon. CKWS Brighton and Global Toronto will be added to their stream. Antenna tv 80's will also launch sometime this year but nothing to confirm it for Buffalo as of yet. Wishful thinking would be to have some of WBBZ's subs moved over to a channel I can receive.
 

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Awesome, neat update, looking forward to it.

Though I won't be able to hit 'block channel' on OAN fast enough on my TV should it ever darken the airwaves
 

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Dumb Canadian here again.

I have a couple questions regarding subchannels and bandwidth and how it works in the USA since none of our networks have sub channels.

With the repack and WNYO moving to atsc3, we now have both RF32 and RF36 with multiple HD channels.

It was my loose understanding that the "flagship" main network is in HD and the 'leftover' bandwidth was allocated to the subs, usually in inglorious 480i. But with both WIVB 4-1 and WNLO 23-1 being present in 720p on 36, and WUTV 29-1 and WNYO 49-1 on 32, it's clearly not a technical limitation. There are able to be multiple HD channels on one RF channel.

If the bandwidth/capability is there, why do they broadcast the sub channels in Potato-Vision? I was just watching How I Met Your Mother on Laff, and not only is it low res which I can live with if it was just that alone, but the bitrate seems terrible. The picture fluctuates and pixelated as to be unwatchable. With a 55 inch tv it's incredibly noticeable and as such I find I can't even watch the sub channels without getting a headache. What restrictions and limitations are there preventing them to broadcast some of these networks in a more watchable resolution? Some of the sub channels have decent enough content I may watch, but my eyes disagree.

Second question. A lot of the sub channels are duplicated now. I understand as explained earlier in this thread that it's due to the buyout of ion tv and shutting down their own sub channels and replacing them with scripps own stuff. CourtTV is on 4 and 51, and Laff, QVC, HSN etc are on 7 and 51.

Are there any plans or news for a subchannel reshuffle in the coming months as the contracts expire, and the introduction of new content, or will these duplications with WPXJ likely continue?
You bring up a good point. There is only ~19mbps that can be used in one 6MHz channel on ATSC 1. WBPH/WLVT/WFMZ channel share in Philadelphia is an extreme example of sardine packing. There are 3 HD channels and 7 SD channels on that one 6MHz channel. So you are right, there isn’t necessarily a technical limitation. Back home, WGRZ 2.4 Quest is 3.1mbps 480i (it is probably less than that now with the introduction of Twist). Why isn’t it in HD, I’m not sure. You could ask that to every station in America hosting Quest. There could be many reasons. The point is, this is a better quality 480i station. Technically if they wanted to they could broadcast Quest in HD, but the bitrate would be 💩 just like the channel share in Philadelphia. In regards to LAFF, there simply isn’t enough “real estate” available to have a better quality 480i, especially with everything going on right now ie. HSN on WKBW, Twist on WGRZ, and the additional WNYO subs that went on those two and WNLO/WIVB.

WVTT on the other hand has plenty of space to have higher quality 480i channels, and yet they aren’t doing anything. I don’t understand why they plan to have WWHC broadcast Azteca America in 720p when HC2 could very easily have a decent bitrate on WVTT. I hope the FCC doesn’t approve their app for the WGRZ tower. It would be yet another WBNF/CHCH situation, this time with WWHC/CBLT. Let them broadcast to the whopping 10 Spanish speaking people in the southern tier.
 
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This was so enlightening, thanks so much for explaining it. I am just trying to understand.

There is only ~19mbps that can be used in one 6MHz channel on ATSC 1.
So this is the main thing. It makes total sense. Like below we can see they've given WIVB the priority, slightly over WNLO:
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I think I was confused because Rabbitears.info must have incorrect info for WUTV with the onboarding of WNYO's ATSC1 stream (simple math says 12.5+11.6 = 24.1 which is way more than 19)
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My guess is RE just took the old bit rates and didn't change it from their previous allocations prior to onboarding 49-1 on to RF32, but the reality now is probably something closer to the WNLO/WIVB split.

Also, in taking a look at these bandwidth allocation charts, I kind of answered part of my previous question. The horrible quality on Laff was because I was watching on 51.4, and they have variable bitrate allocation on WPXJ that is probably extremely low. I just compared it and all of their subchannels that are duplicated on WKBW look way way better on 7. I just edited out all the duplicates on my TV to always be 51, because WKBW comes in far less frequently than Ion, which is basically permanent for me, but now I realize, if 7 is coming in to watch those, not 51.
 

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Until I get new data, when these ATSC 3.0 changes have been happening, I've just been moving the existing rows around until I later obtain new TSReader data to use to update with. As I've been tied up with server moves as well as several issues offline, I've not sought out such data as of yet.

I will also note that TSReader averages over the time it's running when the data is being collected. So while I suspect that WIVB actually is prioritized over WNLO, you can't actually determine that from the given bitrates. If WIVB had been sitting on a static image while WNLO showed a sporting event, the encoder would give WNLO more bits since WIVB didn't need them, even if WIVB was being prioritized.

- Trip
 
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That is very interesting stuff and makes total sense that you have to take these measurements yourself and would just leave the previous values from prior to Atsc3.

I have spent many many hours with your site recently, and thank you for all the work you have put into it to figure out all of these things. Especially for our channels up in Canada where the fact that OTA still exists is like a well guarded secret hidden from us by the cable companies that don't want us to know.

The coverage maps are incredibly on point to a scary degree.
 

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That is very interesting stuff and makes total sense that you have to take these measurements yourself and would just leave the previous values from prior to Atsc3.

I have spent many many hours with your site recently, and thank you for all the work you have put into it to figure out all of these things. Especially for our channels up in Canada where the fact that OTA still exists is like a well guarded secret hidden from us by the cable companies that don't want us to know.

The coverage maps are incredibly on point to a scary degree.
I believe rabbitears uses tried and true propagation modeling like SPLAT. I too agree that it is scary accurate. Even though the site isn’t necessarily set up for FM radio, I decided to go to a portion where a map showed a Syracuse station could be acquired in Wyoming county. It showed a tiny red spot over the map on a hill. To my surprise, as soon as I got to the spot it came in and only at that location! I love it.

My question is would Rabbitears ever have a variable propagation map for stations with multiple PLPs or crazy low SNRs on ATSC 3.0? If a station is broadcasting at an SNR of -6dB, a 41-50dbu limit would be too high. Possibly a drop down menu with a what if scenario?
 
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That is very interesting stuff and makes total sense that you have to take these measurements yourself and would just leave the previous values from prior to Atsc3.

I have spent many many hours with your site recently, and thank you for all the work you have put into it to figure out all of these things. Especially for our channels up in Canada where the fact that OTA still exists is like a well guarded secret hidden from us by the cable companies that don't want us to know.

The coverage maps are incredibly on point to a scary degree.
"Myself" is not quite correct. I often rely on local people I know in the area, some of whom are in AVS local threads like this one, to provide such data. I'll send them a note and ask for the data, and they'll send it back to me for update and posting. I have regular contacts in the Buffalo area, I just haven't asked them yet.

You're most welcome. Canada is a bit of an on-going mess, as the Canadian technical database is nowhere near as informative or as organized as the FCC's database. It's more like a frequently-updated spreadsheet, so a new license will overwrite an old one, rather than the FCC database which stores all of the past records but flags which ones are no longer valid. Makes keeping the coverage maps straight up there a nightmare, so if you ever happen across one that looks fishy, please let me know. (I've manually entered the technical parameters for Star Ray TV, so ironically, that's the one that's most likely to be right!)

I believe rabbitears uses tried and true propagation modeling like SPLAT. I too agree that it is scary accurate. Even though the site isn’t necessarily set up for FM radio, I decided to go to a portion where a map showed a Syracuse station could be acquired in Wyoming county. It showed a tiny red spot over the map on a hill. To my surprise, as soon as I got to the spot it came in and only at that location! I love it.

My question is would Rabbitears ever have a variable propagation map for stations with multiple PLPs or crazy low SNRs on ATSC 3.0? If a station is broadcasting at an SNR of -6dB, a 41-50dbu limit would be too high. Possibly a drop down menu with a what if scenario?
The maps are generated with SPLAT plus modified versions of the tools Doug Lung wrote to process that data. Determine Real Coverage With SPLAT! 1.2.0 The Signal Search Map, by contrast, uses the FCC's TVStudy software to do similar calculations. Longley-Rice is the underlying model and it's pretty decent in many cases, though I'm definitely aware of cases, particularly in very mountainous terrain, where it gives answers that are wildly wrong. It's not perfect, but it's what the FCC uses, so it's good enough for me.

I've had multiple requests for maps with differing parameters over the years, including different receive heights and signal thresholds. As the maps are all produced in advance and in batches, each taking from 1 to 10 minutes depending on size, I can't really do that sort of thing without months of generating new maps. I haven't ruled out doing new maps of some kind at some point down the road, perhaps with TVStudy rather than SPLAT, but many maps of the same station with varying parameters is almost certainly not in the cards. Sorry.

- Trip
 

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"Myself" is not quite correct. I often rely on local people I know in the area, some of whom are in AVS local threads like this one, to provide such data. I'll send them a note and ask for the data, and they'll send it back to me for update and posting. I have regular contacts in the Buffalo area, I just haven't asked them yet.

You're most welcome. Canada is a bit of an on-going mess, as the Canadian technical database is nowhere near as informative or as organized as the FCC's database. It's more like a frequently-updated spreadsheet, so a new license will overwrite an old one, rather than the FCC database which stores all of the past records but flags which ones are no longer valid. Makes keeping the coverage maps straight up there a nightmare, so if you ever happen across one that looks fishy, please let me know. (I've manually entered the technical parameters for Star Ray TV, so ironically, that's the one that's most likely to be right!)



The maps are generated with SPLAT plus modified versions of the tools Doug Lung wrote to process that data. Determine Real Coverage With SPLAT! 1.2.0 The Signal Search Map, by contrast, uses the FCC's TVStudy software to do similar calculations. Longley-Rice is the underlying model and it's pretty decent in many cases, though I'm definitely aware of cases, particularly in very mountainous terrain, where it gives answers that are wildly wrong. It's not perfect, but it's what the FCC uses, so it's good enough for me.

I've had multiple requests for maps with differing parameters over the years, including different receive heights and signal thresholds. As the maps are all produced in advance and in batches, each taking from 1 to 10 minutes depending on size, I can't really do that sort of thing without months of generating new maps. I haven't ruled out doing new maps of some kind at some point down the road, perhaps with TVStudy rather than SPLAT, but many maps of the same station with varying parameters is almost certainly not in the cards. Sorry.

- Trip


Wow! No worries. Your website is fantastic and is such an invaluable resource. It’s actually my favorite website.

The Longley-Rice propagation model of CICO-28 showed some random red spots in portions of Lockport, NY. I was curious to see if you could get that station there. When I did that specific location in search, it displayed the channel as
-24dBuV/m. That’s when I knew they weren’t both perfectly correlated.

Do you know of any way I could create a map on my own using up to date software for MacOS? Apologies if I sound stupid. (I’m more inclined in terms of radio tech than with software/coding and I’m trying to learn more).
 
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