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Discussion Starter #41

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As long as its tight and musical sure.
Then I would certainly recommend you to consider the B&C 21ds115 and the LaVoce SAN214.50. I would think both are available through the online vendor you linked to earlier.
 
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Discussion Starter #43
Then I would certainly recommend you to consider the B&C 21ds115 and the LaVoce SAN214.50. I would think both are available through the online vendor you linked to earlier.
OK thanks. So to summarize.
21"Lavoce, miniDSP HD, DIY enclosure, inuke6000, anything else?
Is there a link to an enclosure plan and material requirements for the 21"?

Thanks
 

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As long as its tight and musical sure.


Tight and musical aren’t real things. I’m telling you, the second you build a big sub and turn it on you will be disappointed, mostly because you’ll excite a room mode with the new extension you’ll have over the 12’s and will need to DSP it down.

One thing these pro 21’s have over just about any other “home sub” is their massive amounts of headroom for mid bass. If you didn’t want ULF and kept them in the mid 30’s you’d probably be tickled pink.


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Discussion Starter #45
Tight and musical aren’t real things. I’m telling you, the second you build a big sub and turn it on you will be disappointed, mostly because you’ll excite a room mode with the new extension you’ll have over the 12’s and will need to DSP it down.

One thing these pro 21’s have over just about any other “home sub” is their massive amounts of headroom for mid bass. If you didn’t want ULF and kept them in the mid 30’s you’d probably be tickled pink.


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I am aware of that I need to EQ them in nicely so no disappointment there and thanks for the warning! Mid bass is good I need that slam as well as lowdown I can feel. As for music I can create a 2nd setup in the processor and just use the mains for that as they go down to 35hz if I really wanted to but of course it would be nice if the sub played music well.
 

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I am aware of that I need to EQ them in nicely so no disappointment there and thanks for the warning! Mid bass is good I need that slam as well as lowdown I can feel. As for music I can create a 2nd setup in the processor and just use the mains for that as they go down to 35hz if I really wanted to but of course it would be nice if the sub played music well.
I have decent extension to the 40's with my mains but I couldn't imagine listening to music without my subs.
 

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Discussion Starter #47
I have decent extension to the 40's with my mains but I couldn't imagine listening to music without my subs.
Yes that's why I asked upfront in the first post if a DIY can match my current one as it's outstanding for music.
 

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Discussion Starter #48
soo I decided to build the Hammer as the first one:


I had the woodwork cut next door in a few hours which was really handy but there was little hiccup as I followed the wrong cut sheet on the video but it was easily corrected by a couple of new pieces.

The assembly is nearly done and awaiting the electronics to arrive hopefully before the weekend.

Behringer NX3000
Mini DSP HD
Ultimax 12"
and the all the little bits.

I'll see how it sounds and if I like it I will add another or another 3, not sure yet. If I am not entirely happy I most likely will upgrade to an 18" version.

Also ordered Duratex and wondering if I could apply some clear coat on top to give it a nice glossy finish. Anyone had any experience/success with that yet?
 

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soo I decided to build the Hammer as the first one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLBSZKdoQ5c&t=549s

I had the woodwork cut next door in a few hours which was really handy but there was little hiccup as I followed the wrong cut sheet on the video but it was easily corrected by a couple of new pieces.

The assembly is nearly done and awaiting the electronics to arrive hopefully before the weekend.

Behringer NX3000
Mini DSP HD
Ultimax 12"
and the all the little bits.

I'll see how it sounds and if I like it I will add another or another 3, not sure yet. If I am not entirely happy I most likely will upgrade to an 18" version.

Also ordered Duratex and wondering if I could apply some clear coat on top to give it a nice glossy finish. Anyone had any experience/success with that yet?
Its a good starting point. The ported alignment will be louder at the port tune versus the dual opposed sealed sub but the opposed will be better in most other categories. If you are already considering the 18 i'd just go with the 18 honestly. I think you are on the right path though, the UM12 is still capable for being a 12" sub.

As for Duratex I'm not sure what would be usefull as a clear coat. Eng-399 does some awesome paint jobs using duratex and gets a VERY flat finish with it.
 

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Discussion Starter #50
Its a good starting point. The ported alignment will be louder at the port tune versus the dual opposed sealed sub but the opposed will be better in most other categories. If you are already considering the 18 i'd just go with the 18 honestly. I think you are on the right path though, the UM12 is still capable for being a 12" sub.

As for Duratex I'm not sure what would be usefull as a clear coat. Eng-399 does some awesome paint jobs using duratex and gets a VERY flat finish with it.
Thanks, the first one is nearly done so not changing plans for now but I figured I can't have four 18s in the room nor I want to build a power station for the room so see how 2x12" fairs and go from there, I really don't need reference loudness I just need low to mid volume room filling accurate tight bass. I though hard about it and I realized I don't normally go beyond -20-15db and most of the time I listen at -25 so those 12s should fill the room nicely but we'll see soon enough. The Martin Logan are stunning subs but one just wasn't enough, two of those would have been a different story however they are stupidly expensive hence the DIY path. I am enjoying the build and the journey very much so far. I am not expecting this sub to be as accurate or tight as the ML so my expectation are not set very high to avoid disappointment.
 

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Thank you. However the ML is very precise tight and stunning for music as well. That's why I am asking if any DIY can possibly be a good match. If so could you please let me know of some recommended kit?

Cheers
Most preferred drivers used in DIY kits have a far stronger motor and lower distortion that any 12" regardless of manufacturer. Bass being tighter or faster with small cones is a myth. Properly built, any of the common DIY builds here will sound cleaner and tighter due to the power to weight ratio of motor to cone weight. A 21" pro driver will sound better at any volume level than a 12" martin Logan sub as will any of the better 15 and 18" models.

Small cones have to move too far to create any meaningful output in the deep bass and the farther the cone moves, the more distortion the system makes.
 

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nor I want to build a power station for the room
Larger drivers are generally more efficient than smaller drivers in a given application.
 

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Discussion Starter #53 (Edited)
Most preferred drivers used in DIY kits have a far stronger motor and lower distortion that any 12" regardless of manufacturer. Bass being tighter or faster with small cones is a myth. Properly built, any of the common DIY builds here will sound cleaner and tighter due to the power to weight ratio of motor to cone weight. A 21" pro driver will sound better at any volume level than a 12" martin Logan sub as will any of the better 15 and 18" models.

Small cones have to move too far to create any meaningful output in the deep bass and the farther the cone moves, the more distortion the system makes.
The ML was 10" dual only not 12". I am itching to find out what this 12" can do but aas I said I set my expectations low.

I would have finished the first one but due to the pandemic one of the parcels (the woofer of course) is stuck in transit. arghh
Behringer and MiniDSP arrived this arvo.
 

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Discussion Starter #54
This where I am up to so far:



 

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Discussion Starter #55
Just realised the hammer I am building is in the next thread :)
 

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Discussion Starter #57
Whats going on with the mix of materials being used? Why not all MDF?

Whats the white stuff, is that melamine?
Was expecting the question :)

Its all MDF, the joinery that cut the sheets only has this in stock and I didn't want to wait for them to order the plain one, its the same stuff as the normal MDF but one side has a white coat on it so its easier to paint that's all. All of the joints were bare MDF to ensure the glue stuck properly. All of them were laser precision cut.
 

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Discussion Starter #58
Some progress:




 

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Discussion Starter #59
OK done!

So last night I was able to finish the build and do the first round of setup. Applied a 17hz high pass in miniDSP, did a little EQ-ing, created a house curve and used ARC genesis to top it all off. The result is not bad at first go. As mentioned I went in with low expectations and it definitely surpassed them by a nice margin. Down low it definitely hits harder than the ML did, for music its not as precise but close, I occasionally hear some port noise which requires more testing to isolate but its no deal breaker.
Overall I am very pleased it was definitely worth the effort and I really enjoyed the journey building it.
Now I am ready to add a 2nd one to smooth the response as there are some dips I don't think I can get rid of however the rabbit whole goes deep and of course now I am thinking to do a 15 or 18" version. Saying that I am glad I went with an existing design to take the guess work out of the modelling process, all went smooth and worked perfectly at the first turn of the key.
Well done Steve with the design.

One thing I wanted to mention was that I used foam to line the inside as fiberglass particles are rather unhealthy in a "breathing" ported sub so wouldn't openly recommend.

Used Duratex with a spray gun and it worked quite well creating nice smooth finish. For the next one I will attempt to apply a gloss coat on top.
For a first DIY sub its a definite thumbs up! I am a believer now.






 

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OK done!

So last night I was able to finish the build and do the first round of setup. Applied a 17hz high pass in miniDSP, did a little EQ-ing, created a house curve and used ARC genesis to top it all off. The result is not bad at first go. As mentioned I went in with low expectations and it definitely surpassed them by a nice margin. Down low it definitely hits harder than the ML did, for music its not as precise but close, I occasionally hear some port noise which requires more testing to isolate but its no deal breaker.
Overall I am very pleased it was definitely worth the effort and I really enjoyed the journey building it.
Now I am ready to add a 2nd one to smooth the response as there are some dips I don't think I can get rid of however the rabbit whole goes deep and of course now I am thinking to do a 15 or 18" version. Saying that I am glad I went with an existing design to take the guess work out of the modelling process, all went smooth and worked perfectly at the first turn of the key.
Well done Steve with the design.

One thing I wanted to mention was that I used foam to line the inside as fiberglass particles are rather unhealthy in a "breathing" ported sub so wouldn't openly recommend.

Used Duratex with a spray gun and it worked quite well creating nice smooth finish. For the next one I will attempt to apply a gloss coat on top.
For a first DIY sub its a definite thumbs up! I am a believer now.
Looking really good dude.

On the next one, you should put a roundover on the ports internally that will help reduce chuffing a lot with a smooth air transition. You should also think about doing them on the exit too if you have enough material, even a small roundover there will help a bit.

Maybe add another panel of bracing inside too.

And yeah, I would say skip another 12 and go right for an 18. Since you will be going to the effort to build it, may as well get the size right. If I were you, I would build someting with a pro woofer in it next, they will be much better for cone control.

At least you got your fingers dirty, the more you do, the easier it gets and then the hobby takes on a new form. Its very rewarding hearing great sound come from things you have made.

I designed an 18" the other day which I will potentially be building for Paul, and possibly myself.

7cf about 200litre. 750H/500W/650D (mm)



This has a faital pro subwoofer in it, which would have absolutely vicious midbass and still extend pretty low, you can also plug the port to get a ~16.5hz tune. The main tune is 24hz.

These should be considerably better than an Ultimax for music if thats your thing, and you will find these drivers in cinemas, so they will have plenty of bass. They are really sensitive, so ULF output would end up pretty similar to an Ultimax anyway after some tweaking.

They are 8 ohms, so you could run two for 4ohm load and sent 1kw to them and they will be louder than you need. Very easy to drive.

https://faitalpro.com/en/products/LF_Loudspeakers/product_details/index.php?id=201070155

Without highpass, box native response,



Highpass to protect drivers 1hz below tuning. This gives you an ideal M shaped cone travel graph for above and below tuning. With the 24hz tune both ports open you could throw almost 2kw at each of these drivers and not hit Xmax, the ports may start chuffing at near that level though, but it would be within limits.

If you plug the port you can throw about 1kw at each driver before xmax. But if you build just one and put it in a room with room gain, it will likely give you just about enough output for full reference levels including bass management to all speakers in an atmos system.

 
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