build versus buy - cost considerations

I went for a refurb Dell 530s Slim PC for $327.52 shipped from the Dell Outlet online.


Intel Core 2 Duo E2160 (1MB L2,1.80GHz,800 FSB)

Genuine Windows Vista Home Premium

2 GB DDR2 Non-ECC SDRAM 677MHz (2 DIMMs)

250 GB SATA II Hard Drive (7200 RPM)

16X DVD +/- RW w/dbl layer write capability

Dell 19 in 1 Media Card Reader

1 Yr Ltd Warranty and On-site Service


There was not a scratch on this PC. I could not tell it was a refurb.


For expansion, this PC has (1) PCIe x16, (1) PCIe x1, (2) PCI slots, although the slots are all half height.


I will be spending $100 on an 8600GT Galaxy vid card, $60 on a SB Audigy with digital breakout, and $20 on a Firewire card.


So, for around $500 bucks, I'm getting a decent system that is very compact and enough power to run HD movies.


I will also eventually get a Blu-ray/HD-DVD drive and maybe PowerDVD to go with this setup.



Quote:
Originally Posted by amheck /forum/post/12827704


Hey gang,


I want to get a simple HTPC for general surfing, watching SD DVD's via my 200 disc firewire changer, maybe some light gaming and DVR duties.


I have some spare parts around - a silverstone LC03 case, NF4 motherboard and a Opty [email protected], a hdd, some nice ram, and a ATI x800xl video card and a Happaugue 150MCE card. I think all I'm really missing is a PSU and the OS.


I started looking around and I'd really like to go with Vista, but that's looking to be over $200. With a decent PSU, I'm looking at probably $300. And it'd be nice to get a video card that will process some of the newer stuff, so that's another $400. Plus the additional software for watching DVD's. At that price, you're approaching some of the HP refurb or closeout deals online and at various B&M stores.

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Yeah I think it becomes a tough choice, particularly when you plan on buying your OS. As others have mentioned OEM versions are cheaper though you should note if you buy OEM Vista you are only entitled to the CPU architecture type you buy. I.e. If you buy x86 Vista OEM that's all you get. Whereas if you buy the retail version it appears that you get both x86 and x64 and even if the x64 is not included in your box you can get the x64 DVD from MS for a nominal charge.


If you're not planning on doing any HD, I would probably just buy the PSU and the OS you need. It would be ashame to waste all that stuff you have already. Given what you've listed there, I doubt you'd need much more than a 300W PSU anyway so you don't have to spend a ton there either.


Then again you see stuff like what Mossberg posted and it makes you wonder if you shouldn't just buy something like he did. You're right that you might want to worry about how upgradeable they are but when they are already faster than what you have, except maybe the video, and it's not costing much more, do you really have to worry? If your X800 is PCI-e you can pop it right in there too


Personally the thing I find most unfortunate with these brand-name/pre-built computers is the fact that they use Intel reference boards which don't allow any overclocking. The E2160 in Mossberg's machine is quite good at it's price point--it's a decent CPU no doubt. However what makes those CPUs great is the fact that you can often run them at around (or over) 3.0Ghz (compared to 1.8Ghz stock), but you can't do that on stock Dell/HP/etc. boards, unfortunately

Your Opteron 165 @2.6GHz + NF4 mb is good enough. The only missing feature in NF4 is HD Audio, but this is not important (as a new video card includes HD audio controller). What you need are:


- PSU: Corsair VX450W , $80.

- Video Card: Sapphire Radeon HD 2600 XT , $93. (X800 XL is enough for SD contents, though)

- OS: Windows Vista Home Premium 32-bit OEM , $110.

- Total: $283


and your upgrade is done. If you add a BD / HD DVD drive later, your system will be fine for the next couple of years.


I forgot RAM. If your RAM is 1GB, you will need to add another 1GB (512MB x 2), $50 (DDR is pricey!). I still prefer DIY to a pre-built system because of fexibility.



Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx /forum/post/12830678


- PSU: Corsair VX450W , $80.

- Video Card: Sapphire Radeon HD 2600 XT , $93. (X800 XL is enough for SD contents, though)

- OS: Windows Vista Home Premium 32-bit OEM , $110.

- Total: $283


and your upgrade is done.

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Which is only $44 less than the guy above who posted the Pentium DC system with included Vista OS, 2GB DDR2, and a 1yr warranty.


Which is the OP's dillema in the first place--is it really worth it to spend the money on the OS and PSU, when an entire computer (including the OS) could be had for not much more...


Still a tough decision. I would probably stick with buying the PSU and uh well let's not talk about the OS, lol; but the biggest factor would probably be the fact that on-board video stinks compared to an X800 that he/she already has so using that card would be essential. If the X800 is PCI-e, I would say might as well find a Dell w/Pentium DC as listed above; otherwise the PSU plus OS is probably the better route. Just what I would do though--I'll admit it's a tough decision.



Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx /forum/post/12830917


There is no way to compare Dell with the upgrade plan I suggested. The price of a refurbished system depends on what components are used. That of Pentium DC 2.2GHz (which I consider minimum for future PC) and 2GB RAM is around $400. 250W PSU is crappy (no way to reuse it) and no video card is included (add another $100).

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why is 2.2ghz the min for future use? The heavy decoding is offloaded to the GPU anyways. My dc 3800+ has been able to handle everything thrown at it with the help of a $30 8400GS video card.


2GB RAM is can normally be had for $50 after rebate from newegg or fry's B&M.


My HP runs a 180W PSU and it's rock solid. Nothing crappy about it.


I'm not saying pre-built is the end all, be all. There are certainly tons of crap out there. But DIY is overrated as well. I've built systems using the best of the best components, but in the end, it made no difference unless I was doing stuff totally unrelated to HTPC usage.


When it comes to HTPC, my philosophy is "Reliability is king." You just want **** to work. That's why pre-built can have its place in the home theater world.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenerDiode /forum/post/12831008


why is 2.2ghz the min for future use? The heavy decoding is offloaded to the GPU anyways. My dc 3800+ has been able to handle everything thrown at it with the help of a $30 8400GS video card.


2GB RAM is can normally be had for $50 after rebate from newegg or fry's B&M.


My HP runs a 180W PSU and it's rock solid. Nothing crappy about it.

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There are lots of HD contents for which hw acceleration does not work and you are confined to PDVD (or DT) for hw accleration if it works. A slow processor may be able to handle them but CPU usage will be very high (not good for my taste).


What is the point of 2GB DDR2 SDRAM price?


Dell PSU is proprietary, that I call 'crap' (no way to use other PSU or reuse it). I don't say it's not stable. Just my opinion.



Quote:
Originally Posted by renethx /forum/post/12830917


There is no way to compare Dell with the upgrade plan I suggested. The price of a refurbished system depends on what components are used. That of Pentium DC 2.2GHz (which I consider minimum for future PC as there are lots of HD contents that requires CPU decoding power) and 2GB RAM is around $400. 250W PSU is crappy (proprietary connector, no way to reuse it) and no video card is included (add another $100).

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I think there's a way to compare it While you're likely absolutely right about the Dell PSU (I actually didn't know they were doing prop. connectors now, as in the past all their boards were Intel reference boards I thought) so it probably can't be reused, I think the LGA775 with C2D support is still a better idea. I mean for $44 more, even not being very upgradable, the CPU still has more potential. I'm not really sure if a Pentium E at 1.8 will outrun a dual-core Opty at 2.6, I would think it would be close. Plus with LGA775 you have a huge upgrade path on the CPU, with the Opteron you're at a dead end. You could sell the E2160 for $50 or so (maybe even more) and throw in any of the C2Ds out there at the moment. The current system/componets, even after adding those $$$ to upgrade it you're still at an eventual dead end that comes sooner than the Dell system in some respects.


But then I guess the Dell stock board is a waste anyway because there's really no need to get rid of the E2160 where on any other board you'd get at least near to 3GHz out of it overclocking...


You could reuse the upgraded PSU you suggested, no doubt, with any other board later on. I'm not really recommending one way or the other here I guess, just saying the Dell system is still an option in some respects.


I think there's still two ways of looking at it anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenerDiode /forum/post/12831008


why is 2.2ghz the min for future use? The heavy decoding is offloaded to the GPU anyways. My dc 3800+ has been able to handle everything thrown at it with the help of a $30 8400GS video card.

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I would actually recommend a C2D greater than 2.2Ghz though, myself! I would say you need a C2D OC'd to at least 3.0 GHz, or a C2Q/quad core CPU instead. The Opty at 2.6, that isn't going to cut it I don't think. If you run into HD problems (if you care about HD) you're gonna have to either OC that Opteron (if it isn't already) or go towards an Intel platform, if necessary.


Just as an "HD hitch" example (rather lengthy but just so you get the idea)...


At stock clock on an E6660 I can't play RE3 BD back without stuttering issues. Now PDVD indicates DXVA in use and it's a AVC/h.264 movie and I have an X1950pro that allegedly accelerates AVC.


The X1950 can't accelerate as well as the Nvdia 8400/8500/8600 or the ATi cards with UVD I guess, but it's still supposed to accelerate it (whether it actually does in my case I'm not sure) However I get ~50% on both cores on most AVC encoded Blu-ray discs, but RE3 is profile 1.1 which PDVD does not support yet. Despite the bitrate being similar to other AVC movies, at 2.4Ghz my C2D hasn't got a chance in hell on that movie! Either DXVA is not working and/or something with [the lack of] profile 1.1 is seriously messed up. I'm just saying that it won't work because I tried it at 2.4 as someone was experiencing problems on an older Pentium D so I wanted to see what was going on...


I'm actually lightly OC'd on the E6600 to about 3.2GHz so the cores handle it... But just barely, at 80-100% most of the time. If you were trying to play this movie with your Opteron or A64 x2 it would be either a very frustrating or very funny experience (depending on your sense of humour).


Right now, using PDVD (one of the only programs for BD at the moment) movies like RE3 require relatively high CPU performance. Now we know the problem is PDVD--when the lazy Cyberlink clowns get around to updating it, it'll probably be fixed; but when will they fix it? At least I can watch the movie now whereas some others can't. Even once they update it, what happens with Profile 2.0 movies start appearing? The same thing? Another wait for months before Cyberlink (or whatever company) updates while things like HA don't work at all? Then you're stuck.


As long as you stay out of the 1080p/BD/HD-DVD area though, you'll never have a problem, that's for sure. But there is something to be said for more processing power--it's always handy to have because you never know when you'll need it