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The simplest way to address this issue is to have your room inspected before adding the fabric. Once the room is drywalled, primed, carpeted and all the electrical is complete you can request your inspection. If the floor is basement unfinished concrete you can request a final before putting in the carpet if all the electrical circuits are protected circuits. (per my inspector)
 

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Is this in a residential house? I can't imagine they would question it - as it isn't structural, electrical or plumbing. But, sometimes they get their panties in a wad over the strangest things. Is it fire retardant GOM ??


Can you install it after final inspection?



BigmouthinDC and I think alike !
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer /forum/post/16915694


BigmouthinDC and I think alike !

Then you would give me a great deal on a Planar 8150 or the new InFocus in the pipeline.
 

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The only issue I've had is the flame retardantcy, which I handled by spraying the fabric with a flame-retardant spray.


CJ
 

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Quote:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Peer
Quote:
BigmouthinDC and I think alike !

Then you would give me a great deal on a Planar 8150 or the new InFocus in the pipeline.
Quote:
[jedi]


"These are the deep projector discounts you were thinking of"


[/jedi]

I WILL GIVE THE DEEP PROJECTOR DISCOUNT YOU SEEK.............


( said in my best mind controlled monotone voice )


Call me when the new Infocus is out.


Now back to your regularly scheduled GOM fabric question program...........
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I would like to finish front wall and some sofits with Black 701 GOM.


I believe Black FR701 has been tested at:


Flame Spread Index = 5


Smoke Dev. Index = 70



if it is over riged fiberglass, I would think it would be ok.
 

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Guilford PANEL fabrics are Class "A" fire rated. There are other ratings noted on the material sheets and labels (keep around for the inspector). Most building authorities do have code restrictions affecting fabric mounted on walls. These, however, are typically fire codes, not building codes. YOU are expected to know the local codes. In many areas, the building inspector and the fire inspector are TWO different agencies and they do not necessarily speak to each other. If a fire inspection is required and you don't get one, you'll could be looking at a bad day in the future.


There is a member of this forum where the inspector did question and was prepared to deny the installation of fabric on the walls. He also took a piece of the fabric (GOM), applied a flame to the edge, watched the fabric burn, and said no, no, no. However, upon reflection (after some "encouragement"), the inspector noted he had performed an edge burn test, not a surface flame spread test (which was the basis for the local fire code), and, when provided the manufacturer's product label, allowed the installation. NOTE: All fire ratings, tests, and approvals are restricted to approved methods of installation and use.


Now...as a warning. Your local inspector may not inspect, want to know about, or give a hang about your fabric over fiberglass installation. That does not mean there is, or is not, a local fire code issue. You should check first. If there is a fire, and it can be determined your fabric installation (while not the cause of the fire) was a contributing factor to rapid spread or fire intensity, your insurance carrier can tell you to take a hike IF you don't use properly rated materials. In almost every single jurisdiction the non-commercial application (meaning DIY) of a fire retardant will not be, and is not, approved (and absolutely NOT acceptable to your insurance carrier). Never has been, and never will be.


One should not be making suggestions one defer such installations until after the inspection in order to hide the matter. Those making such "public", written, non-erasible, non deniable suggestions could find themselves on the wrong side of a lawsuit or criminal investigation. (Today's litigious environment is not a pleasant place to be.)
 

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This comes up a lot on this forum. First I am not a lawyer, banker, or insurance person. But I see this as a baseless threat.


1) How many working people actually OWN their home? No, the mortgage company owns it. So if the insurance company denies the claim, it's not the homeowner that is left holding the bag, it's the mortgage company and they have legal departments just as big as the insurance companies. So it's going to be a significant fight on those levels.


2) Sure the mortage company could sue the borrower for the loss but a bankruptcy will take care of that. So again the mortgage company loses.


3) I am willing to bet mortgage comapnies have internal insurance on the loans just for these circumstances so in the end some insurance company is going to pay out.


I just think in the real world, the big insurance company and the big mortgage company will work something out as long as it was not deliberate arson.


Also Dennis, I think you and your competitors possibly have to be careful with unsound advice on these forums as you are a licensed professional practicing the trade. Most of us are just hobbiests in this specific trade, that is HT installation, and do not practice it as a business here so our advice is not considered expert in nature. For example I am not a licensed electrician and never posted that I was. But I often give out electrical advice, sometimes in conflict with codes. But in the eyes of the law my advice is not "expert". Again I am not a lawyer, JMO.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie /forum/post/16920744


Also Dennis, I think you and your competitors possibly have to be careful with unsound advice on these forums as you are a licensed professional practicing the trade. Most of us are just hobbiests in this specific trade, that is HT installation, and do not practice it as a business here so our advice is not considered expert in nature. For example I am not a licensed electrician and never posted that I was. But I often give out electrical advice, sometimes in conflict with codes. But in the eyes of the law my advice is not "expert". Again I am not a lawyer, JMO.

Wow, I'm speechless. Just because you're not an expert doesn't mean that you can't be held liable for giving out advice that is knowingly against code. The various codes are written to protect the homeowner and, in some cases, the general public. I, personally, prefer not to take risks when it could possibly be to the detriment of my family's health.


CJ


PS- I guess "speechless" was not quite the correct word to use.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJO /forum/post/16921132


Wow, I'm speechless. Just because you're not an expert doesn't mean that you can't be held liable for giving out advice that is knowingly against code. The various codes are written to protect the homeowner and, in some cases, the general public. I, personally, prefer not to take risks when it could possibly be to the detriment of my family's health.


CJ


PS- I guess "speechless" was not quite the correct word to use.

I just don't see that happening. There are countless DIY forums on the internet. If public members could be held liable for free advice, I don't see how these forums could exist.


Now if I say I am a licensed electricial or general contractor and give bad advice, perhaps there is a case. But clearly not when the advice comes from a fellow hobbiest. JMO - we need a lawyer to chime in here.


Note too that telling someone the proper way to do something does not mean they understand and will follow your instructions properly. What then? Are you liable because the person you advised lacks practical expereince? If that were the case there would be no such thing as these DIY construction and home repair books. (they do generally have a discalimer in them)
 

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This DIY forum http://www.diychatroom.com/f12/announcements/ has this disclaimer as a sticky post on top of each sub forum:
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It's not like we (the avsforum community) are being compensated for this, it's free/DIY/Take it or leave it advice.


Now I am a registered PE, and we do have a code of ethics for services performed (ie paid for)
http://www.nspe.org/Ethics/CodeofEthics/index.html

Quote:
# Engineers shall perform services only in the areas of their competence.


1. Engineers shall undertake assignments only when qualified by education or experience in the specific technical fields involved.

2. Engineers shall not affix their signatures to any plans or documents dealing with subject matter in which they lack competence, nor to any plan or document not prepared under their direction and control.

3. Engineers may accept assignments and assume responsibility for coordination of an entire project and sign and seal the engineering documents for the entire project, provided that each technical segment is signed and sealed only by the qualified engineers who prepared the segment.


I do agree though the owners of avs must have discussed this with their legal experts and handled this in the past. Probably comes up every 6 months, everyone is reminded, then quiets until heats up again.


FAQ seems not to address legal issues, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/faq.p...q_vb3_register


this does address some of it:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/avsrules.php
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex /forum/post/16921681


Now I am a registered PE, and we do have a code of ethics for services performed (ie paid for)
http://www.nspe.org/Ethics/CodeofEthics/index.html

As am I



I think that a court could find someone liable for giving someone instructions that he knew were conflicting with the building code, if something happened. In any case, I wouldn't want to put myself in a position to find out one way or another. Unintentionally giving bad advice or someone not following instructions correctly are different situations.


CJ


PS- technically that Code of Ethics is for members of NSPE. ASCE has its own code of ethics as do most of the other associations.
 

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Glimmie,

Expert or not, stupid or smart, East coast, West coast ... makes no difference. If you knowingly advise, assist, aid, etc. in taking such actions as to avoid compliance with an ordinance or statute, you may be held liable for the consequences of those actions, up to and including, conspiracy, manslaughter (death as an unintended consequence), etc., etc. For example, the sole purpose (VA, DC, etc) of a Radar Detector is to avoid compliance with the law. If you install one, you are responsible. If the manufacturer (or other individual) knowing helps you install one to avoid detection, the whole lot of you are toast.


There is a difference, however, between telling someone what you would do, what others have done, etc and telling someone "do this", or "here's how" you avoid the law.


In the end, you cannot be knowingly telling someone to violate the law and expect to get off scott free if something adverse happens. While you (and others may disagree), those who produce the codes you suggest people ignore, view those codes as life safety matters.


With respect to insurance companies not paying a claim, the mortgage company may get involved to the extent they need to protect their interest. None-the-less, while the mortgage holder may have some form of coverage for such losses (including Obama Bucks), they still have recourse to you ... NOT to your insurance company. Good example...all of those homeowners who were NOT required to have flood insurance. The insurance companies did not pay, did not have to pay, and the mortage company and the homeowner need to sort it out.


No. I am not an attorney. I have a couple of good ones that provide very specific advice in this area (and I teach those courses).
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine /forum/post/16921970


Glimmie,

Expert or not, stupid or smart, East coast, West coast ... makes no difference. If you knowingly advise, assist, aid, etc. in taking such actions as to avoid compliance with an ordinance or statute, you may be held liable for the consequences of those actions, up to and including, conspiracy, manslaughter (death as an unintended consequence), etc., etc. For example, the sole purpose (VA, DC, etc) of a Radar Detector is to avoid compliance with the law. If you install one, you are responsible. If the manufacturer (or other individual) knowing helps you install one to avoid detection, the whole lot of you are toast.


There is a difference, however, between telling someone what you would do, what others have done, etc and telling someone "do this", or "here's how" you avoid the law.


In the end, you cannot be knowingly telling someone to violate the law and expect to get off scott free if something adverse happens. While you (and others may disagree), those who produce the codes you suggest people ignore, view those codes as life safety matters.

So if I tell someone to break the law in the process of an internet forum or other public bulletin board, they do it, I'm partly or fully responsible under the law? I don't think so. It's the tired old saying "if someone told you to jump off a cliff...." Now if I accept money for such advice or give the advice under the presense of a professional license, or worse yet a fake license or certification, that's probably different.

Quote:
With respect to insurance companies not paying a claim, the mortgage company may get involved to the extent they need to protect their interest. None-the-less, while the mortgage holder may have some form of coverage for such losses (including Obama Bucks), they still have recourse to you ... NOT to your insurance company. Good example...all of those homeowners who were NOT required to have flood insurance. The insurance companies did not pay, did not have to pay, and the mortage company and the homeowner need to sort it out.

True, but again you can't get blood from a rock. If your house burns down and insurance is denied whats the mortgage company to do? Sue you for the outstanding loan amount? Last I heard debtors prision was abolished in the 1600s. Ok, your credit is ruined for seven years (or is it ten now?). Now if someone is injured or killed and it was a result of code voilations you could be charged with manslaughter or worse if you blatenly violated the code and knew it. But I don't think you can pass any of that problem onto someone who told you to do it that way on the internet.


Again I am not an attorney either but would like to hear of any actual cases in this area.
 

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I think the mortgage company stuff is a canard. The goal is to pay off your mortgage people. I am sure many folks on these boards have paid off houses or substantial equity.


That said, I am not a lawyer, but have a lot of exposure to them. I am not sure generic advice by a nonspecialist would create a duty to make some one liable. I am sure that if something awful happened there would be major legal fees involved in determining if that duty was present.

Quote:
There are four elements to a tort, all of which must be present before the court can order a remedy:


1. Duty. The defendant must owe a legal duty to the victim. A duty is a legally enforceable obligation to conform to a particular standard of conduct. Except in malpractice and strict liability cases, the duty is set by what a "reasonable man of ordinary prudence" would have done. There is a general duty to prevent foreseeable injury to a victim.


2. Breach of the duty. The defendant breached that duty.


3. Causation. The breach was the cause of an injury to the victim. The causation does not need to be direct: defendant's act (or failure to act) could begin a continuous sequence of events that ended in plaintiff's injury, a so-called "proximate cause".


4. Injury. There must be an injury. In most cases, there must be a physical or financial injury to the victim, but sometimes emotional distress, embarrassment, or dignitary harms are adequate for recovery.
http://www.rbs2.com/torts.htm
 

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I think there is a fine line between what is construction and what is a furnishing. A drywalled room is construction. I think it can be debated whether Fabric and acoustical treatments are construction or furnishings. Thank God we don't live in a country that inspects how you furnish a private residence.
 
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