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This clearly makes the PA-150 the budget 15" sub to buy for those that want a lot of output for big rooms and can't afford to make the price jump to the 12" ID subs.
 

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That is pretty terrible.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1  /t/1415471/cadence-15-review#post_22130100


Now where's that guy who told me I had a vendetta against Cadence for calling it a mid bass module

What I don't understand is why all the budget 12" and 15" ported subs have such peaky mid bass response. Obviously, Energy is able to make a 10" with a fairly good response down to 30hz (the S10.3). Surely it's possible for someone to put out a 12" sub for
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145  /t/1415471/cadence-15-review#post_22130825


What I don't understand is why all the budget 12" and 15" ported subs have such peaky mid bass response. Obviously, Energy is able to make a 10" with a fairly good response down to 30hz (the S10.3). Surely it's possible for someone to put out a 12" sub for
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ  /t/1415471/cadence-15-review#post_22130901


Have you seen the energy's response measured? I doubt it is anything to brag about. If it is truly 21 to 120 hz +/- 3db like it claims, that is going to be at a very low output level. I would bet, subjectively speaking, the Cadence will sound better than the Energy simply for the sake of having high output in the regions that it does. I don't mean to slam the Energy sub, but its max clean output response is going to be very similar, unless it has limiters in the higher bass frequencies. That is what you would expect from a ported 10" in a small enclosure with a modest amplifier. It will be tuned pretty high. You won't be seeing any subs under 500 having serious output to below 40 hz because you need one of two things: either a large cabinet with big ports or high excursion driver with high power amp. Either of those things are inherently expensive.

The S10.3 is the blue response, you can see that it's tuned to 30 hz with an over sized enclosure (peak at tune), the opposite of subs like the cadence/bic/most non-ID ported subs


Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145  /t/1415471/cadence-15-review#post_22130825


What I don't understand is why all the budget 12" and 15" ported subs have such peaky mid bass response. Obviously, Energy is able to make a 10" with a fairly good response down to 30hz (the S10.3). Surely it's possible for someone to put out a 12" sub for
 

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Then that brings up the question, what is the maximum clean output of the Energy sub? I'm sure it is nowhere near what the Cadence can do. I wouldn't be so quick to condemn either design, those are just the trade-offs of lower budget subwoofers.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1  /t/1415471/cadence-15-review#post_22131000


The woofers being used have high inductance motors, these are strictly "sub woofer" drivers. Low inductance means a driver can play higher in frequency. Steps taken in the motor design to lower inductance increase costs. Generally speaking a large woofer with low inductance is a high end driver, or it isnt a sub. This is where the the whole "small woofers are faster then large woofers" comes from, as it is easier for a small woofer to have low inductance. Most sub manufacturers would rather put their money towards higher output then lower inductance.

OK. But I recently put together a new car audio system, and somehow car audio companies are able to put out 12" sub drivers that have a tuning point down in the low 30hz range, that also have a fairly linear response in the right size box down to the tuning point. And then there is the Dayton Reference series drivers. Just seems strange to me that an existing or new ID company hasn't put together a budget sub that can accomplish that.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ  /t/1415471/cadence-15-review#post_22131301


Then that brings up the question, what is the maximum clean output of the Energy sub? I'm sure it is nowhere near what the Cadence can do.

Sure. As long as we are not talking about "useable" output. If someone is setting the crossover on their setup at 80hz, how do they take advantage of the 40hz and below output on the Cadence when the response drops -20db from 80hz to 40hz?


Meanwhile, while far from optimum, the PA-150 does much better according to Ricci's tests. Doesn't make sense to me to discuss the Cadence subs as a viable option in any scenario.
 

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the PA-150 doesn't produce low frequencies well either.


You'd be better off with the $300 Klipsch RW-12D at newegg than the PA-150. At least the Klipsch RW-12D will play down to ~22hz with some respectable prowness for a single 12" driver ---- especially at the $300 price point.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea  /t/1415471/cadence-15-review#post_22131979


the PA-150 doesn't produce low frequencies well either.

You'd be better off with the $300 Klipsch RW-12D at newegg than the PA-150. At least the Klipsch RW-12D will play down to ~22hz with some respectable prowness for a single 12" driver ---- especially at the $300 price point.

The PA-150 does significantly better than the subwoofer in question. The RW-12 hasn't been tested outdoors as the other two (AFAIK) so that is just speculation.



 

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Matt34,


It's speculation with teeth based on a bit of relevant data.


The PA-150 and RW-12D were previously discussed in this thread. Along with my basic measurements of FR as compared to Ricci's outdoors FR measurements. I'm not pretending that my tests are anywhere near as conclusive as Josh's, just stating that the measurements we have of the same subs actually line up if you ignore a 50hz null that occurs in my room as noted on the graphs in my 2011 subwoofer meet thread linked in my sig.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1394073/rw-12d-299-again/0_50

Read posts 24, 35, and 37 for reference.


You note that despite a null at 50hz the frequency response graphs in my room and the one's Ricci has captured are surprisingly pretty equitable. Unfortunately for me - - my room offers little to no room gain, yet the Klipsch RW-12D still had flat response down to 22hz. With all the various subs I've measured in my room only the nicer quality ones or the ones possessing some form of EQ are flat to around 20hz. The subs that fade off long before 20hz outside - fade off in my room as well. (enter my measurments of CHT SS 18.1, Epik Empire, Yamaha CW218V, BIC F12, BIC V1220, Pioneer SW-8, Jensen MS500, etc.)


Also keep in mind that the RW-12D was compared to the HSU VTF3-MK2 Turbo, the SVS PB12, the Outlaw LFM-EX, and a Velodyne in the 2005 sound and vision shootout and it was midpack.

That's good and well established company to keep --- especially at the current/constant $300 sale price.. actually from what I've seen I think it's a clear value leader when available at $300 range.
 

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Jay1,


Do you mind linking where you found the energy S10.3 sub review frequency response graph?


That sub has been getting a lot of push around her lately and with a frequency response like that that falls off at 30hz, it really doesn't look any better than the BIC subs that are commonly recommended at sub $200 price points. Lots of comments seems to say it's flat down to low 20's instead of 30s, I'd like to read the objective review and see how the measurements were taken.
 

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 HomeTheater.com :
Quote:
The S10.3's close-miked response, normalized to the level at 80 Hz, indicates that the lower –3-dB point is at 24 Hz and the –6-dB point is at 23 Hz.

Also, SoundAndVisionMag.com :
Quote:
In the Lab

. . .

Bass limits (lowest frequency and maximum SPL with limit of 10% distortion in a large room)

. . .

subwoofer 20 Hz at 84 dB SPL
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea  /t/1415471/cadence-15-review#post_22133171


Jay1,

Do you mind linking where you found the energy S10.3 sub review frequency response graph?

That sub has been getting a lot of push around her lately and with a frequency response like that that falls off at 30hz, it really doesn't look any better than the BIC subs that are commonly recommended at sub $200 price points. Lots of comments seems to say it's flat down to low 20's instead of 30s, I'd like to read the objective review and see how the measurements were taken.

eljaycanuck posted the link. What makes the Energy so much better is it doesnt have a high inductance peak at 50-70hz with a steep roll off to 30hz.. A peak a 30hz while not ideal, is a lot more desirable due to lower perception of sound. The sub basically has a house curve designed in.
 

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thanks for the links guys...


If anyone has one of these S10.3's and wants it reviewed. I'll offer to pay return shipping and throw a review up on avsforum similar to the others I've done. I'm not very interested in purchasing it because I suspect the BIC F12 is a superior purchase for the pricepoint and I've already measured the BIC F12. Though I may be wrong and am willing to check it out if somebody has one they want tested. Here are my previous tests with the BIC products.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1391243/bic-v1220-and-bic-f12-omnimic-frequency-response-graphs/0_50


The BIC has a similar FR, but with a bigger, likely higher quality driver and larger box. The BIC uses a 4ohm BASH amp as verified with the vender by KCNITRO07 rated at 475 watts. (likely peak rating). I was impressed with the driver quality for so inexpensive a sub and it gets plenty loud. At the HuskerOmaha 2011 subwoofer meet those who hadn't heard the BIC F12 all expressed surprise at the quality of the sound for so inexpensive a sub. I think it is significantly better than most HTIB, typical low end subwoofers -- (I would also asssume the energy should be better as well)


FWIW

Amazon reviews have the BIC F12 at 4.5 stars out of >200 reviews and the energy S10.3 at 4.0 stars out of 8 reviews.
 
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