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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Okay guys i finally calibrated the system with auddyssey on my Onkyo SR606, to all that dont know, i have the bp6s for the fronts, the CLR2002 which is drop dead goregous for the center
and a pair of BP2Xs which are nice aswell for the surrounds mounted on the wall behind me, oh and i have the eD A2 300 sub , i ran the test twice and here are the results i got:


Subwoofer: Yes

FRONT: FULL BAND

CENTER: FULL BAND

SURROUND: 100HZ

SURR BACK: NONE

SURR BACK CH: ------

LPF OF LFE: 80HZ



Speaker Distances:


Left: 8ft

Center: 8ft

Right: 8ft

Surround Right: 6ft

Surround Left: 5ft

Subwoofer: 13ft



Speaker Volumes Levels:


Left: -9db

Center: -8db

Right: -9db

Surround Right: -12db

Surround Left: -12db

Subwoofer: -14db


I heared from many members that if Auddysey sets the fronts to LAREGE( FULL BANDWITH) that it should be manually set to Small and applied a crossover setting , so i changed the crossover for the fronts and center to 60hz, is that right or i should do something else?



Please tell me what i should do regarding the frequency responses to get optimal sound, for now its set to 60hz for the bp6s and the 60hz for the CLR2002, and for the surrounds its set to 100hz, for the subwoofer its set tot 80z(what auddysey set it to, i didnt change that.. )



Id appriciate your input, also regarding the surrounds , Auddysey set it to 100hz , one thing tho, Defintive Technology recommands setting the BP2Xs to 80hz as the optimal crossover, so what do i go by?


Thanks
 

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You should go for the manufacturer's settings. I see the BP2Xs have a 4.7" bass driver, that should do 80Hz no problem.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
You mean i should go to the Definitive Technology website to check what they say to set the crossovers to?


Well i did and they recommand setting the BP2Xs to 80hz , but auddysey set the BP2Xs to 100hz , should i ignore what audyssey set it to and set it to 80hz?


for the BP6 Towers they recommand setting it to FULL BANDWITH but again , i posted that before and many members told me that if Auddysey sets my front tower speakers to FULL BANDWITH (LARGE in other words) that i should change that and set the front tower speaker's crossover to something like 60hz or 80hz but i dont know, what should i set it to?
 

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What is the low-end +/- 3db point for the speakers? (BTW, that's a trick question)


You would want to set your crossover to just above where the speakers start to lose their flat response.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by laulau /forum/post/15451597


What is the low-end +/- 3db point for the speakers? (BTW, that's a trick question)


You would want to set your crossover to just above where the speakers start to lose their flat response.

Im not sure how to approach that question, here is the specs for the CLR 2002 from the DEFINITIVE Technology website:

Driver Complement :One 1" pure aluminum dome tweeter; Two cast-basket 5-1/4" bass/midranges
Frequency Response :30Hz - 30kHz
Impedance :Compatible with 8 Ohm outputs
Sensitivity :91dB
Recommended Associated Amplifier Power :20 - 250 watts
Inputs :Two sets of 5 way binding posts: Biwireable
A/V Receiver Crossover Setting :60 Hz




And here are the specs for the BP6s from the Definitive technology website:

Driver Complement :Two 5.25 mineral-filled homopolymer-coned bass/midrange drivers; Two 1 pure aluminum dome tweeters
Frequency Response :25 Hz - 30 kHz
Impedance :Compatible with 8 Ohm outputs
Sensitivity :91 dB
Recommended Associated Amplifier Power :20 - 175 watts
A/V Receiver Crossover Setting :Large; Full Bandwidth
Inputs :One set of five way binding posts
 

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I have all definitive speakers and an onkyo with audyssey as well.

I have powered towers across the front and non powered bipolar speakers with quad 6.5" drivers side and back. I also have 2 outboard subs. After using audyssey, an spl meter and my ears, I decided to let my subs do the heavy lifting. I have my 7001's & bp20's at 40hz, clr 3000 & bpvx' at 60hz. I think with your system I would xover your fronts at 50 or 60 hz and rears at 80hz.
 

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By setting ALL your speakers to "small" you take a good deal of strain off your receiver. Then, if it were me, I would start by setting all crossovers at 80Hz and go from there. You can play with it some, testing your various speaker channel crossovers at 60, 80 and 100Hz to get it tuned to your liking.
 

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Lamonsasa, I have a hard time believeing the lowend of those specs are accurate, 2 5.25" drivers can reach to 25hz.... maybe, but not with any power behind them. I would move all speaker setting to small and run a 60 or an 80hz crossover, but you can certainly run them any way you want judging for yourself as to which way sounds better, it is your system after all.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakewash /forum/post/15453111


Lamonsasa, I have a hard time believeing the lowend of those specs are accurate, 2 5.25" drivers can reach to 25hz.... maybe, but not with any power behind them. I would move all speaker setting to small and run a 60 or an 80hz crossover, but you can certainly run them any way you want judging for yourself as to which way sounds better, it is your system after all.

lamonsasa,

This is exactly why I said my question was a trick question above. From what I can tell, DefTech doesn't provide a limiting attribute with any of their Frequency Response specifications. Without this attribute (usually +/- 3db), their FR specification is a pretty useless spec. Not only does it leave their owners to wonder what to set their XOs to, it also cannot be used as a point of comparison with other speakers (probably their intention). IMO, listing the FR specification this way allows a company to make their products appear to be better performing than they really are. To give the impression that those DefTech 5.25" drivers will provide any amount of usable volume at 25Hz is...optimistic, if not borderline deceptive.


Be that as it may, I agree with the other posters, using a "small" setting, start at 80hz, then experiment with going higher and lower from there.
 

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You should completely ignore a manufacturer's spec if it does not list the +/- 3 dB range. Such a spec tells you nothing about the *useable* response of the speaker. It only tells you that the speaker will respond and move when driven by such a signal, not whether it will have output that is within the same SPL range as the rest of the frequency bandwidth.


However, if you are using Audyssey, you can also pretty much ignore a manufacturer's -3 dB rating. The reason is that Audyssey actually *measures* the in-room response of the speakers. The in-room response is all that matters. Speakers will measure differently in different rooms. They'll even measure differently when in different placements within the same room. The manufacturer's rated -3 dB point is measured anechoically, or *without* a room, (at least it's supposed to be.) No "real" room is anechoic.


Audyssey reports the measured in-room -3 dB point to the receiver. The receiver manufacturer then makes a decision about what to do with that information. Onkyo's decision is to set speakers with any response below 80 Hz to "Full Range". This is usually inappropriate, and should be overridden by invoking a crossover. When invoking the crossover, the first one selected is the one recommended by Audyssey.


It is OK to *raise* the crossover above the one recommended by Audyssey because Audyssey will still EQ above the recommended crossover. However, one should avoid lowering the crossover. Audyssey will not EQ below the measured -3 dB point, as this would entail boost of those frequencies. Boosting low frequencies can endanger amps and speakers, and most likely will not improve the response anyway.


Much knowledge about Audyssey can be gained by reading the "Official" Audyssey Thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=795421

Also, here is a very detailed Audyssey Setup Guide:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...95421&page=191

I suggest that the OP follow these guidelines very closely to ensure optimized Audyssey results.


Craig
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fireman325 /forum/post/15454130


Thanks for that post Craig. I learned quite a bit from it.

You're certainly welcome. It's nice to know *somebody* has actually read what you wrote!



Craig
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Thanks for the replay craig, i read the auddysey thread , to be clear, so Auddysey set my Surrounds to 100hz, my center and mains to FULL BANDWITH. What is my best move?


it says this in the auddyssey thread:

1. Raising the crossover frequency from the calibrated setting does not affect the channel correction implemented by Audyssey.


and

2. Lowering the crossover frequency from the calibrated setting is not recommended.


So i got a measurment of FULL BANDWITH for my mains and center, so if i change the crossover for the center and mains to 60hz, am i LOWERING or Raising ? thats what i dont understand..


And should i leave the surrounds at 100hz(what auddysey measured) or change it to 80hz?



And it also says

B. Raise the low-pass filter setting (usually incorrectly identified as a crossover) of the LFE subwoofer in the receiver / processor to 120Hz, if allowed.

Auddysey set my LPF of LFE to 80hz .. but the post says to change it to 120hz if possible (it is possible... )



And i also did one small edit, i raised the Volume for the center speaker 2 Notches than what auddysey set it to so that i can hear dialog better. is that fine?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamonsasa /forum/post/15455210


Thanks for the replay craig, i read the auddysey thread , to be clear, so Auddysey set my Surrounds to 100hz, my center and mains to FULL BANDWITH. What is my best move?


it says this in the auddyssey thread:

1. Raising the crossover frequency from the calibrated setting does not affect the channel correction implemented by Audyssey.


and

2. Lowering the crossover frequency from the calibrated setting is not recommended.


So i got a measurment of FULL BANDWITH for my mains and center, so if i change the crossover for the center and mains to 60hz, am i LOWERING or Raising ? thats what i dont understand..

Changing the setting from FULL BANDWIDTH to 60Hz is essentially RAISING the crossover frequency. Do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lamonsasa /forum/post/15455210


And should i leave the surrounds at 100hz(what auddysey measured) or change it to 80hz?

I'm not sure what you should do. However, if I were you I would leave it at 100Hz and only change it to 80Hz if the bass from surround-sound noises seems to come from the wrong place (wherever the sub is located) rather than the surround speakers. My advice: leave it at 100Hz.


More info: Bass above 80Hz is said to be "localizable", meaning that you can tell where it comes from. Bass below 80Hz is generally thought to be non-localizable, meaning that you can't really tell where it is coming from, so it doesn't matter if it all comes from a sub stuffed into a corner or on one side of the room. Now, of course you can be aware that it comes from the sub since you are the one that configured the system and you can see the sub cone moving when there is a big boom, but what matters is where it SOUNDS like it is coming from. With the surround crossover setting set to 100Hz, there is a chance that the bass part of "surround sounds" will SOUND like it is coming from the wrong place (the sub). But I wouldn't worry about it unless you actually notice that it sounds "wrong" while watching real content.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lamonsasa /forum/post/15455210


And it also says

B. Raise the low-pass filter setting (usually incorrectly identified as a crossover) of the LFE subwoofer in the receiver / processor to 120Hz, if allowed.

Auddysey set my LPF of LFE to 80hz .. but the post says to change it to 120hz if possible (it is possible... )

I think the setting from Audyssey is just a default setting and not based on any measurements it does. Personally, I am not sure that this setting makes a very noticeable difference, since I think it just affects the LFE track of the program material. My advice: change it to 120Hz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lamonsasa /forum/post/15455210


And i also did one small edit, i raised the Volume for the center speaker 2 Notches than what auddysey set it to so that i can hear dialog better. is that fine?

A lot of folks make the same adjustment that you made, for the same reasons. However, I personally prefer to keep the system calibrated properly so that the center does not seem over-emphasized relative to the rest of the channels.


Another method to achieve your intended result of increased dialog intelligibility without de-calibrating the system is to turn on / turn up the "dynamic range compression" (DRC) in the receiver (or player) and turn up the volume. DRC will soften the explosions, and the volume bump will increase the dialog intelligibility.


Room treatments also help dialog intelligibility a lot, IME.


My advice: change the center level back to what Audyssey recommended if you can find another method to increase dialog intelligibility that works for you.


-Max
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxcooper /forum/post/15457747


Changing the setting from FULL BANDWIDTH to 60Hz is essentially RAISING the crossover frequency. Do it.




I'm not sure what you should do. However, if I were you I would leave it at 100Hz and only change it to 80Hz if the bass from surround-sound noises seems to come from the wrong place (wherever the sub is located) rather than the surround speakers. My advice: leave it at 100Hz.


More info: Bass above 80Hz is said to be "localizable", meaning that you can tell where it comes from. Bass below 80Hz is generally thought to be non-localizable, meaning that you can't really tell where it is coming from, so it doesn't matter if it all comes from a sub stuffed into a corner or on one side of the room. Now, of course you can be aware that it comes from the sub since you are the one that configured the system and you can see the sub cone moving when there is a big boom, but what matters is where it SOUNDS like it is coming from. With the surround crossover setting set to 100Hz, there is a chance that the bass part of "surround sounds" will SOUND like it is coming from the wrong place (the sub). But I wouldn't worry about it unless you actually notice that it sounds "wrong" while watching real content.




I think the setting from Audyssey is just a default setting and not based on any measurements it does. Personally, I am not sure that this setting makes a very noticeable difference, since I think it just affects the LFE track of the program material. My advice: change it to 120Hz.




A lot of folks make the same adjustment that you made, for the same reasons. However, I personally prefer to keep the system calibrated properly so that the center does not seem over-emphasized relative to the rest of the channels.


Another method to achieve your intended result of increased dialog intelligibility without de-calibrating the system is to turn on / turn up the "dynamic range compression" (DRC) in the receiver (or player) and turn up the volume. DRC will soften the explosions, and the volume bump will increase the dialog intelligibility.


Room treatments also help dialog intelligibility a lot, IME.


My advice: change the center level back to what Audyssey recommended if you can find another method to increase dialog intelligibility that works for you.


-Max


"dynamic range compression" , my onkyo sr606 doesnt have any settings called like that, the only settings which i enabled are the CINEMA FILTER and DYNAMIC EQ(makes everything sound good even at ow volumes)


My other question is, 60hz is the best my tower speakers can do?(bp6s) and also the CLR2002? i mean is 60hz the best thing to set them to? not like 50hz or 40hz?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamonsasa /forum/post/15458552


"dynamic range compression" , my onkyo sr606 doesnt have any settings called like that, the only settings which i enabled are the CINEMA FILTER and DYNAMIC EQ(makes everything sound good even at ow volumes)

Dynamic Range Compression and Dynamic EQ are very similar. The idea is that they "compress" movie's soundtrack so that dialogue and quieter sounds are made louder and loud sounds (explosions, gunshots, etc.) are made quiter so you can watch a movie at night, hear everything, and not wake up everyone in the house. Just my personal opinion, but unless you're watching while everyone else is in bed, I would recommend turning Dynamic EQ off.

Quote:
My other question is, 60hz is the best my tower speakers can do?(bp6s) and also the CLR2002? i mean is 60hz the best thing to set them to? not like 50hz or 40hz?

Remember that the lower you go in the frequency range, the more power you need from your amp to get the same volume. Just because your speaker can go that low, doesn't mean you should set it up so that it does go that low, especially if you're running your speakers with a receiver. If you're using a real amp then maybe. Frequencies below 80 or 100Hz are difficult or impossible to localize, so let your subwoofer do the hard work down low. The amp in your sub is powerful enough to handle the lower frequencies at the desired volume levels.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Okay, so i shouldnt let the towers play lower? i mean that doesnt give me a better overall sound quality if the towers play some of these lower notes?


So what i have now is i have the mains and center set to 60hz, i have the Surrounds set to 80hz, i have a question, its not appropriate to set the surrounds to 60 aswell or thats not a right thing to do? the crossover for the sub is set to 80hz.(eD A2 300, provides alot of slam in my apartment
)


The only other setting i changed is i Upped the volume for the center channel just one Notch than what auddysey set it to, but only one notch, not two notches like i said earlier in the thread.


One more thing , the DYNAMIC EQ on my onkyo, well onkyo's description of that feature is that it makes everything sound detailed and loud even at low volumes, it doesnt make it soft , check the description here: http://www.audyssey.com/technology/dynamicEQ.html
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamonsasa /forum/post/15458873


Okay, so i shouldnt let the towers play lower? i mean that doesnt give me a better overall sound quality if the towers play some of these lower notes?


So what i have now is i have the mains and center set to 60hz, i have the Surrounds set to 80hz, i have a question, its not appropriate to set the surrounds to 60 aswell or thats not a right thing to do? the crossover for the sub is set to 80hz.(eD A2 300, provides alot of slam in my apartment
)

You can play with your crossovers to see what sounds best to you. Just remember, though, that as your regular speakers try to play lower frequencies at higher volumes, they must draw more power, which can lead to clipping, which is bad for your speakers. I doubt if a setting of 60Hz will be a problem though.

Quote:
The only other setting i changed is i Upped the volume for the center channel just one Notch than what auddysey set it to, but only one notch, not two notches like i said earlier in the thread.

It's common for people to turn the center channel up 1 or 2 dB to help undertand dialogue. Again, it's a matter of personal preference. Adjust your speakers' settings to suit your likes.

Quote:
One more thing , the DYNAMIC EQ on my onkyo, well onkyo's description of that feature is that it makes everything sound detailed and loud even at low volumes, it doesnt make it soft , check the description here: http://www.audyssey.com/technology/dynamicEQ.html

I don't think my previous description this was very good. The main purpose for these systems (Aydyssey Dynamic EQ, Dolby Volume and Dynamic Range Compression) is to process whatever you're listening to so that all of the soundtrack can be heard at low listening levels. Usually this means you've got the volume turned down to keep the loud parts from being too loud, but this can make the quiet parts too quiet. These systems "bring out" the quiet parts so they can still be heard. I'm sorry I didn't do a good job of explaining it before. The different systems may work differently with the way they process the audio, but they all strive for the same result. Some may work better than others.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamonsasa /forum/post/15455210


Thanks for the replay craig, i read the auddysey thread , to be clear, so Auddysey set my Surrounds to 100hz, my center and mains to FULL BANDWITH. What is my best move?


it says this in the auddyssey thread:

1. Raising the crossover frequency from the calibrated setting does not affect the channel correction implemented by Audyssey.


and

2. Lowering the crossover frequency from the calibrated setting is not recommended.


So i got a measurment of FULL BANDWITH for my mains and center, so if i change the crossover for the center and mains to 60hz, am i LOWERING or Raising ? thats what i dont understand..

When you first change the setting from "Full Range", there is a crossover selected. *THIS* is the Audyssey recommended crossover. You can raise the crossover from there, but you should not lower it from there. 60 Hz seems like a reasonable setting, but raising it to 80 Hz would also be reasonable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lamonsasa /forum/post/15455210


And should i leave the surrounds at 100hz(what auddysey measured) or change it to 80hz?

I would leave it at 100 Hz, unless the sub becomes localizable. Audyssey will not apply any EQ below 100 Hz on the surround channels. Also, this setting means that Audyssey has measured the -3 dB point of your speakers in your room, and found that they don't extend much below 100 Hz. Therefore, lowering the crossover and sending them a signal below 100 Hz won't result in significant output anyway. Better to send that info to the sub, provided your sub is capable of 100 Hz output.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lamonsasa /forum/post/15455210


And it also says

B. Raise the low-pass filter setting (usually incorrectly identified as a crossover) of the LFE subwoofer in the receiver / processor to 120Hz, if allowed.

Auddysey set my LPF of LFE to 80hz .. but the post says to change it to 120hz if possible (it is possible... )

The LPF of the LFE, (Low Pass Filter of the Low Frequency Effects channel), is *only* appled to the LFE channel, *not* to the re-directed bass from the other channels. The LFE channel, by Dolby's specification can contain info up to 120 Hz. Therefore, if you set it to 80 Hz, you are potentially throwing out any LFE info between 80 and 120 Hz. How big a deal is this? Not much really because most movies/soundtracks don't have much info between 80 and 120 Hz in the LFE channel. The potential downside of the 120 Hz setting is that the sub can become localizable. If your sub is affected in this way, leave the setting at 80 Hz. If not, set it to 120 Hz and get everything from the LFE channel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lamonsasa /forum/post/15455210


And i also did one small edit, i raised the Volume for the center speaker 2 Notches than what auddysey set it to so that i can hear dialog better. is that fine?

One "notch" is probably pretty benign. However, remember that dialogue is not the only thing that comes out of the CC. A lot of the music, sound effects and pans use the CC as well. You don't want them to be out of balance with the sound from the rest of the speakers. Generally, I leave the levels set to the properly calibrated levels.


Craig
 
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